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cost of keel conversion

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Kevin K
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/16/2004 : 21:27:07

I have a 1979 swing keeled Cat 25 in a well protected salt water harbor on a slip and generaly the keel remains down except when entering or exiting the harbor during a low full moon tide. This is the third year I've had it, so its over at a boatyard getting maintenance. I''ve been somewhat intrigued by the wing keel conversion issue due to the fact that the boat is in salt water, but my assumption is that a conversion here in the Northeast would be too expensive to make it worthwhile. Does anybody have a ballpark estimate to have a boatyard do the job?

Kevin K

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2004 : 00:38:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kevin K
 ...Does anybody have a ballpark estimate to have a boatyard do the job?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Kevin,

Although I haven't had this done, I believe people have said the kit costs around $1,800.00 with installation around $2,000.00. So I think $4,000.00 is the ballpark figure.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2004 : 11:34:23

If you are an Association member you will have recieved the new Mainsheet Magazine this month, it has a wing conversion article in it. The article is also on this site.[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/wingcon1.html"]wing conversion[/url]
My point is that you may be able to do it yourself.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2004 : 12:12:49

I would rather have my fingernails removed one-at-a-time with rusty pliers than attempt a project of this magnitude. But that's just me...

Steve

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2004 : 12:21:01

EMPHASIS on MAY be able...gotta have alot of special equipment to pull it off. But it is doable given that.

Where in the N'east are you? I had mine done at Weeks Boat yard in Patchogue and the price that Larry put together was close. Alot depends on the cost to transport it to your location. First price for transporting the keel to N.Y that Catalina offered was $1000. I ordered two of them and had them piggy-backed on a shipment of other products to Weeks for $300. Better watch me here the mind is going but I'm probably close.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2004 : 12:39:50

Kevin, my swing keel has sat in the salty waters of the Chesapeake for the last fifteen years. It has had the hanger hardware and keel pendant replaced once -- five years ago -- and I will do it again next spring. While the swing wasn't designed for salt water, there are many of us out there who have had no problems as long as we pay attention and do the maintenance.

While some others disagree, I dock my boat with the keel UP. This is what the instructions say; it keeps most of the pendant out of the water and reduces corrosion; the boat is 19 years old and has had the hardware replaced once. When I replaced it, the old hardware was in good shape. I replaced my winch last year when corrosion ate through the drum -- the salt water from the pendant will do that over time to the drum.

Brooke

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SailormanCGA72
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2004 : 14:20:58

In 1990, I converted my '82 SK to a WK down in Key West. If I remember correctly (I've slept since then), the keel was about $1500 and the labor was less than $2000. Based on that, maybe $4000 would be a good starting point.

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2004 : 15:17:08

Then the question becomes, is it worth spending $4,000 to switch keels on a $6,000 boat?

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2004 : 17:16:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Then the question becomes, is it worth spending $4,000 to switch keels on a $6,000 boat?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Exactly. I love my C25, but before I spent $ 4000 to switch keels, I would sell her and buy a C27 shoal or wing keel. There would not be lots of price differential making that move, and I'd have more headroom and maybe even an inboard diesel. Or an outboard if I wanted that vintage.

Or I'd sell and buy a C25 wing.

Just as a reference point, there are 105 C27s listed at yachtworld.com under $ 15,000.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 11/17/2004 17:51:11

Kevin K
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2004 : 21:50:39

To answer the questions, I'm in Rockport, Mass (not Maine) on the tip of Cape Ann. I would consider myself incapable of doing such a job myself. Moving up to a 27 foot Cat is out of the question, as the Town which has assigned me the slip requires that the boat be no more than 26 feet long, and draw no more than 3 feet. 4 grand is a lot, but I always had questions regarding the use of a swing in salt water, and the cost of ongoing maintenance to prevent catastrophic failure as a result of salt water deterioration. Its interesting that one post suggests in water keel up mooring.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2004 : 22:02:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kevin K
 ...Its interesting that one post suggests in water keel up mooring.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Out of necessity, all of the swing keel boats in my marina, including 3 C25's, moor with the keels in the up position.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2004 : 00:50:18

Just my $0.02 worth...When I was considering doing the swing-to-wing conversion on #1205 a couple of years ago, the price quote I got from Morrison Marine hear in Sacramento was $1200 for the labor, and the keel itself was $1750 if I picked it up myself at the Catalina Factory in Woodland Hills. After talking it over with several of my sailing club friends, the general consensus of opinion was that the conversion is a only a "good investment" on a Mk. III (the 1986-1987 model year C-25's that have the flush mount windows). On these boats, you have a fair chance of recovering at least some of that $4000 when you sell the boat. On the Mk. II's (1981-1985), it's unlikely that you will recover much, if any, of the $4000 at resale, but if you really like the boat, having the wing keel conversion done is likely to result in your keeping the boat many more years than you otherwise might. For a Mk. I boat (1977-1980), my friends all said "it's not worth it", including Lowell Richardson, the owner of Catalina Direct. He flat out told me to sell the boat and put that $4000 I would have spent in the conversion into buying a Mk. IV, which is what I ended up doing and have no regrets. It just took a lot of patience, as Mk. IV's for sale are few and far bewteen (I had to drive 6100 miles, clear across the US and back, to buy mine and bring her back home).

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2004 : 06:49:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I always had questions regarding the use of a swing in salt water, and the cost of ongoing maintenance to prevent catastrophic failure as a result of salt water deterioration<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Kevin, I understand about the length and draft requirements. With respect to the maintenance, replacing the hanger, pendant, turning ball, and cable hose will cost $ 200 if you do it yourself, and maybe twice that if you have the yard do it. At the worst, you could do that ten times before it would make the keel conversion economical. If you did that every other year, that's twenty years. If you did it as often as I do, that would be fifty years. I don't know how old you are, but forty-five years from now I don't expect to be worrying about the keel on my boat.

The swing keel is historically the hottest topic on this forum. There are some horror stories, to be sure. My observation is that those stories remain the minority; that there are many swingers who keep their boats in the brine without incident; and that regular maintenance is important. You have to paint the bottom every two or three years as it is -- inspect and replace the keel hardware when you do. And consider docking the boat with the keel up: my additional conviction about doing that is that it reduces the lateral flex of the keel and consequent wear on the pivot pin. You will now hear from our colleagues with the opposite conviction. To them I say again, I have a twenty year old boat that's had its keel hardware replaced once (frequency not recommended). The keel is stored up. Maybe there's no relationship, but as Alvah Simon says, "Anyone who believes in coincidences is simply not paying attention."

Nevertheless, if spending $ 4000 on the keel conversion will give you peace of nautical mind and happier days of sailing, that's a small price to pay for the next fifty years of your C25 ownership!

Brooke

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2004 : 08:56:53

My keel's kept up while in the slip...brackish water, too shallow at low tide to leave it down. So far, so good. But I gotta admit I have a twinge of relief every time I approach the marina and see that my masthead and the one next to me (another C25) are at the same level.

Steve

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ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2004 : 22:00:21

I haven't had any problems with mine in salt water.
I heartily believe in the power of ZINC.
I store my keel up so crud doesn't grow on my cable and slow me down.
Replace two zincs every year (maybe 3 or 4 inch diameter), and keep an eye on the crucial parts when you haul it out semi annualy to wash, inspect or paint the bottom.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2004 : 07:50:29

Kevin,
Our boat had a wing keel from the start and I have been satisfied with the keel and the general sailing ability of the boat. If you decide to do the conversion you should also plan to shorten the rudder. If you do not the rudder will be the deepest part of the boat. That leads to damage to the rudder and the stern in a grounding. On our boat the original rudder and the gudgeons had been replaced before we got it presumably from this sort of damage. One more thing to think about. Have you looked through the old threads on the swing keel? If you have not you should. A swinger without proper maintinence and with possible previous damage is pretty dangerous. The critical points are the cable and turning ball and associated parts, the pivot pin assembly, and the fiberglass trunk that the nose of the keel goes up into. Dave

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2004 : 09:03:37

ORION is keel up in berth all the time in salt water in Venice, FL. At low, low water often I am aground, therefore no option. Would prefer the wing, and have almost gone for it, but i do not believe there is any yard that has done the conversion, therefore the learning curve, here on West Coast of Fla between-say-Ft Myers and St Pete. I can't afford to pay $60 plus an hour for somebody's blundering through the job, and can't do it myself any more. So far the swing with proper maintenance has answered my needs, new winch, cable, ball, pin etc last year and hanger assy is due next haulout, the wire and gear have been fine so far.fair winds to all Ron in SW FL PS was out yesterday in a picturebook sailing day, gorgeous!

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2004 : 11:26:23

Ron,
It sounds like you need a twin keel. If you are grounding with the keel up then that can't be good.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2004 : 13:56:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Ron,
It sounds like you need a twin keel. If you are grounding with the keel up then that can't be good.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank is correct - grounding a swing keel 25 with the keel up or down is bad news - either way a huge lateral stress is being placed on the keel hanger bracket if there is ANY wave action at all that is rocking the boat, and if the keel is up, the back of the keel will be pounding the keel trunk, which can lead to cracking the fiberglass laminate - and certainly it's tearing up the gelcoat at the point of contact. Can you ask your marina manager for a deeper slip, or are there any plans to dredge out your marina? If you are grounding the boat with the keel up at low tide, the depth there is only 2.5', which kind of tells me that the marina should be planning to dredge sometime in the not-to-distant future. Heck, with the (outrageous) slip fees some of these places are charging, they ought to be able to afford a dredge every couple of years!

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2004 : 19:08:43

Here's a Catalina 28 wing keel at my marina doing a little low water balancing act a few weeks ago.

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2004 : 19:17:32

Ouch, ouch, ouch. Just how much of a tidal swing do you get there? I can't imagine what that would do to a swing keel over time.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2004 : 20:07:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lightnup
 Ouch, ouch, ouch. Just how much of a tidal swing do you get there? I can't imagine what that would do to a swing keel over time.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's not exactly a tidal swing, but rather is caused by the wind. In western Lake Erie, strong winds from the west will blow the lake to Buffalo. Usually, the water level will only fluctuate a foot or two, but during particularly strong sustained winds, the levels can drop 4 to 5 feet in just a matter of hours with the record being around 16ft.

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2004 : 20:20:50

Just to clarify about Orion, the nominal low water depth in my slip is about three feet. In certain tides or wind conditions I am grounded, a fairly regular occurance, particularly in winter. I have no option whatsoever, my yacht club has a long waiting list for slips, there are only a few for the 25-ft and under crowd, and many of the slips are worse than mine. On the plus side, I am five minutes from the Inlet to the Gulf, and in a very narrow canal with limited wave action. The wing is still an option under consideration. Thanks for the thoughts, Ron SR SK Orion in SW FL

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2004 : 08:42:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ronrryan
 Just to clarify about Orion, the nominal low water depth in my slip is about three feet. In certain tides or wind conditions I am grounded, a fairly regular occurance, particularly in winter. I have no option whatsoever,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Forgive me if this is just plain stupid; could you dredge your own keel area? If the water is that low, then when you have 4-5 ft could you simply get in there with a shovel and a bucket brigade? (even if the brigade is just you and the wife) I would think in several hours you could get down at least a foot in the shape of a grave. What is your rudder doing when you are grounded?

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2004 : 10:10:29

You're killing me Frank,"get your wife to serve on a bucket brigade", I'm working on getting my wife on the boat. I think your suggestion would be counterproductive in my case

.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2004 : 10:44:19

"could you dredge your own keel area? "

Get a stinkpotter in there, tie it down good and rev it up for awhile while in gear... of course, make sure you do this in the dark of night ;>) Some of the big commercial boats in our marina do this... until the harbormaster pays 'em a visit. (BTW, this is tongue in cheek, I'm not really suggesting you actually do this, I wouldn't come visit you in the slammer).

As far as swing/wing conversion. I think a wing keel conversion on the west coast in good shape and nicely equipped (with trailer) will bring lots nearer to $10K than $6K... even a Mark I.

If it's really 'Bristol', it will probably bring a bit more. Going upscale, a nice Mark IV wing will command at least another couple grand above that. Vanilla swingers are going the $7K to $8K+ range. Most of the $6K boats out here are 'fixer-uppers' or don't have a trailer. Being able to move the boat around yourself carries a pretty hefty premium at sale time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you have a nice hull, I think you'd get at least half of your upgrade money back. If you do the conversion yourself, you'll break even or maybe better your investment. It's kinda like buying new sails... you'll never get the money back... but heck, owning a boat really isn't about making money anyway... it's about spending it!

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