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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/29/2004 : 13:07:32

It's been a while since we attacked a serious sailing question here so.....:

When the destination is about into the wind you have two choices.....a long day beating or motoring. If schedule dictates the latter, but the waves/wind are such that that would make for a slow uncomfortable ride there is a hybrid option: Motor sailing. Raise the main, reefed if it's blowing, and lash it midships, or even a little bit to windward if you have a traveler. Amazingly enough, it will stay full up to 15-20 degrees off the wind, provides a lot of stability, and occasionally adds a knot or so.

Why? With increased speed from the motor the apparent wind goes forward, which would lead one to think that the angle off the wind one can sail would increase, instead of the opposite....

My personal thought here is that, unlike sail thrust, engine thrust has no lateral component, drift. Drift provides for a "wind vector" pushing on the back side of the sail, and becomes proportionally larger as we get closer to the wind (very little on a beam reach) to the point where you travel at a sizeable angle from where you're pointing when you start pinching, especially in waves.....motoring thus does not provide for drift and thus allows one to go closer to the wind......

Anyone?

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618)
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - Oscar on 11/29/2004 13:14:34

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2004 : 17:39:07

That is exactly what I did yesterday. The light parade here in J'ville had been canceled Saturday night because of the storm coming across the state from Texas. But the fireworks were pushed back a day. So Sunday I shoved off around 1430. But an hour later I still had not rounded Manderin Pt. and the wind was starting to veer more to the north, which was the direction to downtown were the fireworks were. So I finally decided to furl the jib and motor with the main. It worked very well and I arrived at the seawall just as twilight came. There was a couple of old salty looking guys on a C-25 tied up in front of me. Soon as I docked I started making some hot water for tea as it was a bit nippy (for a Florida boy). When I noticed the two guys standing beside Chick-a-pea looking her over I had them come aboard and see below. They seemed to be pretty impressed with the room down there. They were in a sailboat club which costs $150 a month and you reserve one of eight boats when you want to go out. Anyway, we sat together having hot beverages and watched a spectacular fireworks display. The moon was two days waning so there was plenty of light as I motored back to Amity Anchorage. That took two and a half hours. Got the boat moored and all cleaned up. Made sure I had my cell phone and wallet and stuff and locked the cabin. Stepped off the boat to the finger dock and.... MAN OVERBOARD! There was a heavy dew and the dock was slippery as owl $hit. Into the drink I went. Funny thing was I was prepared to fall over while underway. I wore my PFD and all because after the "turn key idiot" incident at the marina I felt like it could also happen while making way as there were a lot of boats downtown after dark. Anyhow, I was able to muscle up onto the dock and then the shakes started setting in. I could barely get the key back in the lock to get below and break out the old clothes I have on board for just such an occasion. This all took place at around ten-thirty PM so no one was around to see it. I'm just thankful I didn't hit my head on the boat falling backward and knock myself out. There are some other slips there at the marina were people have put carpet on the finger dock and I think I'll follow suite.

Edited by - Ben - FL on 11/29/2004 17:42:49

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2004 : 18:12:03

Ben!! You are lucky--I know someone who almost broke a rib going in like that and then was almost squashed between the boat and the dock!

Oscar: I agree with the benefit of stability--the main definitely steadies the boat. I've heard from other sailors about the speed increase even in virtually dead air, sail up vs. sail down, but haven't been able to verify that... I've observed, however, that the main seems to fill much closer to the wind than it will with the engine off, and even fill in dead air when hardened to the max while under power. Why isn't it luffing? Is it adding speed? One drop and re-hoist of the sail (holding course and throttle) would answer the latter. Are you filling the sail while pointing higher than you could without the engine? Dropping into neutral would answer that--probably luffing the sail. I suspect Bernoulli is at work there somewhere...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/29/2004 18:19:12

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2004 : 18:49:59

Ben, you be careful now you hear!

Ah, Bernoulli, the forward speed, at a very slight angle of attack "sucks" the sail into shape! I'll buy that!

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618)
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - Oscar on 11/29/2004 18:55:05

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2004 : 20:04:42

Ben,

Glad you are OK except for soggy clothes & a bruised ego .Just goes to show Mr. Murphy is ALWAYS out there.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2004 : 09:43:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 Ah, Bernoulli, the forward speed, at a very slight angle of attack "sucks" the sail into shape! I'll buy that!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Is that the same way a convertibles soft top lifts up going down the road?

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2004 : 10:43:15

Pretty much. There is a fair bit of lift created as the air is pushed over the top of the car. Interestingly, there is almost a slight vacuum near the base of the back window that can cause the rear of the car to rise at higher speeds. They put wings on the back of the really fast cars to push the back end back on the road.

I don't think this will be an issue for us though.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2004 : 12:25:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">They put wings on the back of the really fast cars to push the back end. back on the road.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> LIKE THIS ONE?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2004 : 14:05:29

Looks like that'll cost him about 1.5 mpg... But do rednecks care?

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2004 : 14:10:58

Pardon the thread drift, but...

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2004 : 14:42:49

Great concept, but what if you have to go directly into the wind. I went on a trip in the California delta where the tide and strong head winds were coming direclty at me. using the iron genny here had the jib luffing like crazy. I dropped it thinking that it was slowing me down more than helping. Latter in the trip I was able to use is as suggested for some added speed. At times however when the wind was right I was going faster sans engine. I think in these instances the prop was causing more drag than push.

Ben, also glad you were OK. The admrial did a very similar thing, but we won't go into details that she can't remember.

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2004 : 14:49:47

Ben, Thank you for reminding us all to take care staying out of the water. For whatever reason or cause I pulled the same stunt last January while stepping off the boat to the dock. I had my 16 year old daughter and a male guest along that day. He reached down and grabbed me by my belt and dragged me back onto the dock. It wouldn't have taken long for my clothing to have soaked up enough water to make it impossible to get out on my own. As it was, I was out so quickly that my undershirt wasn't wet. From the waist down I was a very cold puppy. People die every year from silly accidents like this. So thank you for reminding me to clip on while sailing and watching my step when I am not.

Edited by - on

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