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Grego5
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/11/2004 : 12:50:08

There is a lot of great info and tips in the forums. Many of the newer users have asked questions directly related to some of them, and the salty ones have pointed the less salty ones to the info. And in my case I have referred back to old posts and posts that have been archived. And the search function does not always work like we hope. I'd like to ask that some of the great things get posted in the Tech Tips so that they ma be found easier. Some things I'd like to see there for easy reference are:

Oscar's Dodger and SailGal's mods as well
Frog0911's Single Line Reefing
Frog0911's Line Organizer

These are from the 250 Forum but I'm sure that the 25 Forum has great posting that great as well.

Greg Perkins
C-250 WK #668

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2004 : 13:13:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Grego5
 There is a lot of great info and tips in the forums. Many of the newer users have asked questions directly related to some of them, and the salty ones have pointed the less salty ones to the info. And in my case I have referred back to old posts and posts that have been archived. And the search function does not always work like we hope. I'd like to ask that some of the great things get posted in the Tech Tips so that they ma be found easier...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Greg,

I agree. A lot of good stuff gets lost in the archives and we should try to get some of it into the Tech Tips.

As for searching the archives, this is mostly a hit or miss proposition. Even when I know exactly what I'm looking for, I have great difficulty locating it since most topics have been repeatedly covered. (Imagine someone new searching for "Swing Keel Maintenance" or "Refinishing Teak"?)

Getting good forum information into the Tech Tips would help everyone.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2004 : 14:58:56

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have individual members research the archives for specific information and write a short article to publish in the Tech Tips. That way the burden wouldn't fall on the Tech Tips editor, who has bigger fish to fry.

What say you, gentlemen?

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2004 : 16:08:39

and ladies....

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2004 : 16:49:52

Speaking as the Catalina 25 Mainsheet Magazine Tech Tip Editor, (whew) I don't think there is a forum tech tip editor. I always believed that if you wanted something of yours posted as a tech tip you simply sent it to Spike and she would post it. Shame on me, I have never submitted anything, of course I have never really done anything worthy of more than conversational discussion so I am kind of off the hook.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2004 : 22:51:16

I apologize Suzie.

Aren't we talking about the C25-250 tech section of the Mainsheet? If so my suggestion stands. This under-contributed section could use some beefing up. If we all volunteered a bit of research and writing time we could publish some of that "great info" buried in the forum archives. Even if it's bits and pieces pulled together in a paragraph or two. I'm sure that we, as a group, could come up with some very interesting stuff for new and not so new members. Although the one or two folks who contribute to the magazine do a great job, they can only do so much. With more folks working at it, the section could be better than, say, the Catalina 30 secion, which is always chuck full of informative information. In my opinion, this forum should be a source for tech tips articles as well as for forum participants. It should not end up a black hole where useful info goes in but is lost.

Just an opinion.

Al
GALLIANT #5801

Edited by - aeckhart on 12/11/2004 22:55:06

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2004 : 08:48:00

If I were one of the new owners or just an interested participant in the forum I would consider doing what I have done the past four years and that is copy everything that I thought was useful to my C250 WB to a CD. Although I never have offered a mod to the tech tips, I did copy and use a few of the tips, however I copy much more of the information that is put out on the forum which may not be considered a tech tip. It seemed a few years ago it was a lot easier to retrieve info from the archives than it is now. "Just my two cents worth" "Bear" C250 WB #089

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2004 : 12:41:41

I think we could really use some new articles in the Tech Tip section of this website. A big glaring one would be on selecting a new outboard for your C25/250, plus there are many other threads that just keep coming up and up (sealing windows, deck leaks, what sealent to use, etc.) Not that I don't mind answering our newer members, but nice Tech Tips with a couple of photos, etc. would be a great addition to our site.

If anyone would like to volunteer to write a website tech tip, send it to Spike or I and we'll get it posted.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2004 : 14:22:13

Tech Tips, Searching and Archives

We, too, have had this same issue for many years (I'm the secretary of the C34 Association). One of our issues has been the repeated "basic" questions that are asked on our message board. This occurs simply because folks have bought PO'ed boats and are upgrading and/or learning. Kinda like, "what's the best outboard?" that appears here with some incredible regularity. :)

We've taken a few different approaches to this.

1. Archiving:

Before the message board format became so ubiquitous, to this and other boards, our first webmaster organized our site and included Projects and FAQs, similar to your Tech Tips and basic organization. The next step was the email "lists" which were very popular, but required individuals to copy and keep the information of interest to them. Some email lists now have archives, which may or may not be searchable.

2. Searching:

When we finally switched to the message board format, we utilized a VERY good search engine. We have one on our main 'site, too. It's two different search engines, and some folks have found that confusing, but that's the way cyberspace works. I also encouraged our members to "do their homework" before they asked a question on the message board (I did this in a Mainsheet secretary's report). Because, we, like you, have a great group of members who share their experiences, I took some grief for that, from a former C25 member, to boot! Anyway, I've now taken to answering the questions on the board with specific url references to either search results or the particular posting on the information requested, rather than simply saying "go look it up." I still encourage searching. I think your search engine could be a bit faster, I keep getting timed out. You also have to be somewhat clever in your search, so I encourage people to use realistic topics to make searching easier. For instance, I recommended using "electrical systems" in questions so that the search engine can find them.

Because there is simply SO much information out there, expecting anyone or even any group to put it all together is really asking too much. Try this: #65279;

"Reminds me of a conversation that I had recently with an encyclopedia editor. I understand his frustration at people continuing to ask him questions, and he replies, "Please, at least just try and start to look it up, that's why we wrote the book. If you still have questions, we'd love to hear from you."

3. Tech Tips and Mainsheet Articles

Our FAQs have "slumbered" recently (last three years) because the message board has "taken over" in information sharing. The FAQs were really compilations of the "list" emails that a few of us took the trouble to save and post. Note, a few of us, maybe four to ten regular guys. But the message board, because of its really good search engine, actually works better than FAQs alone. The interaction is great. Our Projects section continues to grow, because a lot of our newer members are doing upgrades that they're sharing. So, if they send a long message to the board, they're either encouraged, or already have, sent it to the associate webmaster who posts it, with pictures, on the Projects section.

In 2001 we made a CD-ROM of our existing FAQs and Projects and the rest of the 'site, without the then-just-started message board. We sent and continue to send it to all our members, new and old. It's fully searchable via Windows, and opens in a browser.

We also have Indexed all the C34 Mainsheet articles, from way back in 1987, and have them posted to members only on our website. The index is open to anyone, but you need a member's password to get into the PDF articles themselves. All these articles, up to date as of 2001, are on the CD as well. We update the website PDFs as Mainsheets are published. Our goal is to continue document everything, and then make it searchable. The PDFs of course aren't searchable, but the topics themselves are. I'm working on getting the last three years' worth of message board material onto another CD, no conclusion yet.

Arrangement: Many have suggested that "WE" organize the 'site better. To that I say, a few things, like: "Who's WE, I don't see YOU volunteering," or "Where do you put starters, in "engine" or "electrical." I see no need to do this kind of work because the INDEX is ALREADY THERE in the search engine, which is, essentially, a GREAT BIG INDEX and you get to choose the letter or subject to start with. See the encyclopedia rant above.

So, thanks for the opportunity to summarize our work and discuss your valid issues. We're NOT ALONE out there. Tom Sokoloski, the new C36 Mark II Tech Tips Mainsheet man, and I are in contact and share information, because our boats are so similar. So are the "documentation" issues. I believe that prior asking a question on these great and easy to use message boards, each of us has a responsibility to do a little homework first. The answer is out there. However, it's usually the same group of folks that answers the questions, although I see both here and on other sites, that there is a growing batch of new skippers who are experiencing the joys of boat ownership and upgrades and who are now starting to say what we've been saying: "Here's where it is, you can look it up by doing this..."

Finally, I think that capturing as much as we can about our boats on ONE boat specific website is the best way to go. It increases the value of our boats and makes it one stop shopping. I can't understand the newer boats, and some big ones, who continue to use the Sailnet and other "lists" - all the good information that is being discussed is not in searchable format, is on more than one list and requires skippers to go to more than one place to dialog with their counterparts.

As an idea for you, why not consider PDF-ing all the past C25 C250 Mainsheet articles, it would certainly answer one of the first questions on this thread. We also have to realize that there are folks who are not Internet savvy, and who rely on Mainsheet. Reprints of Top Ten articles are another idea.

I think the way you are set up is very helpful to all C25 and C250 skippers and continue to wish you all the best.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 12/12/2004 15:07:15

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2004 : 15:07:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 

Aren't we talking about the C25-250 tech section of the Mainsheet? If so my suggestion stands. This under-contributed section could use some beefing up.
Ouch! I apologize Al. I have apparently set my bar too low, in my conceit I thought we were doing fine. 

If we all volunteered a bit of research and writing time we could publish some of that "great info" buried in the forum archives. Even if it's bits and pieces pulled together in a paragraph or two. I'm sure that we, as a group, could come up with some very interesting stuff for new and not so new members.
I have had the temerity to publish some of my own efforts but most of what goes in is from forum contributors.

Although the one or two folks who contribute to the magazine do a great job, they can only do so much. With more folks working at it, the section could be better than, say, the Catalina 30 secion, which is always chuck full of informative information.
 Once again I thought we had been providing genuine usable information on projects that were of value to our membership. It sounds like the scope of my vision is out of range. I have been going for the occasional big project like the wing conversion and several months in between full of multiple small projects. I hope the next big project is that super cabin organizer project of Bruce's.

In my opinion, this forum should be a source for tech tips articles as well as for forum participants. It should not end up a black hole where useful info goes in but is lost.
I think you are absolutely right and that the miracle is how well this forum functions in the non moderated mode that it exists in. The forum is a piece of the Association, albeit the main piece in my world, still just a piece. The officers are elected to run the association, Spike through her incredible kindness keeps the wheels on our site and a couple of us volunteer to put a face on the association in the form of the Mainsheet and the TellTale. This site could be come so much more if someone were to step up to manage the information content on it. I would be thrilled to have gleaned first class tech tips submitted to me whether by originator or by archivists. Many threads have a core of information that deserves to be stored in a rational catalog of information. We already simply blow away every sailing support site that I am aware of, where this site could go is intriguing. I am certain that the officers of this organization would be delighted to create some new volunteer titles for those who wish to give the time to sifting the archives and screening current posts that it would require meet these goals. 

Just an opinion.

Al
GALLIANT #5801
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 Excellent post Al, thank you for your candor and vision.

Frank

Edited by - on

Grego5
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2004 : 18:09:16

When I originally posted I had three projects in mind that I was going to do on my boat. I have the posts printed out so I can see where I'm going. I almost have the supplies togather and am waiting for the Pacific Nortwest weather to complete them. I'm more than willing to post the projects to the Tech Tips but since I am plagerizing the project would prefer that the true brains behind them get the credit.
I know that there are other projects out there that are just as noteworthy to other members (just not me at this time), that would be nice to have in an easy to find place ant the Tec Tips in the forum seemed a good place to put them.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 08:22:32

Let's just say for the sake of conversation that we were going to take excerpts from old threads to create tech tips, answers to FAQ's, and other general information. What would your Top ten items be to give a starting point? (please be sure to indicate if your a 250 sailor or a 25 sailor if its not obvious.) Below are what I would top ten . The officers are having a meeting very shortly and this is definitely something I would love to bring up as an added benefit.
Keeping in mind that many of these already appear in the tech tips, I think a summation showing the different options and ways people did their upgrade would be in order for some of my list below.
<ul>
Pro's and Cons - Swing versus Wing and replacement
Keel Cable Replacement
Mast Stepping Methods
Blister Repair
Through Hull To hull debate and repair
Lines Led Aft
Replacement of the Factory Curtain Burner
Traveler Upgrades
The Balanced Rudder Debate
Spinaker Rigging
</ul>

Lastly - I wouldn't mind as an organization approaching the trailor sailor board to see if they have any of our really old threads archived and look into purchasing that data, then importing it (I know it would be easy, but would be possible as I work in data warehousing) into our new board.

dw

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 10:05:47

All of these are excellent suggestions, which I second. The practical side of this is illustrated by the last time ORION was hauled out. I printed out pictures and diagrams of the swing keel wire, winch, turning ball, etc from tech tips and discussed them with the yard guy who was going to do and supervise the work. He was NOT familiar with C25s but the printed info helped in a good result, which was: all the work done on time, correctly, which saved me anxiety and money. Kudos to the tech tips, and I hope to post some stuff to it soon, ron #2343 srsk SW FL

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 12:45:15

My $.02 on the list:
Swing versus Wing and replacement - This is more of a buyer's guide. Not too many of us are brave enough to change the keel.

I would add dodger/bimini instead, as that is a tricky issue.

I am up to my ears in electrical repairs, but that seems to be well represented in the Tech section.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 13:49:01

Frank,

I did not mean to imply that you weren't working hard to make the Tech Tips section of the Main Sheet top notch. It is excellent. However, it seems to me that there were a lot more contributers in years past. My intention was to propose means of beefing up the Tech Tips while easing your job a bit, i.e. from primary contributer to editor, and getting a large information source some exposure. Stu Jackson's comments are certainly pertinent in that content has dropped off since the advent of web sites and bulletin boards, etc. I for one really enjoy the magazine and would like to see it flourish. To put my 2 cents where my mouth is I'll say this, If I can help let me know, and, I'll start to research the archives for an article, perhaps using one of Duane's suggestions for a topic.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 14:19:59

I've tried to get something posted to the Tech Tips section of the website four times and got nothing each time. Even sent the HTML code snippet for the links page, as well as the HTML for the Tip page. I've completely given up trying.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 16:04:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 Frank,

I did not mean to imply that you weren't working hard to make the Tech Tips section of the Main Sheet top notch. Al
GALLIVANT #5801
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I saw nothing wrong with your post, I hope my response reads that way.

Edited by - on

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.