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RANT about the use of the term ADMIRAL

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/14/2005 : 18:08:19

If you would like to read it follow the link.
[url="http://members.cox.net/mlhopper/catalina/rant.jpg"]RANT[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2005 : 19:09:23

Whoaaa Frank.....Feel better now? All right I'll bite. (Nice precise title by the way...)

One of the shortcomings of a forum is that, as much as we try to compensate, communication is limited to only one of the elements of effective communication, the word. Body language, other sounds, giggles snickers looks and hugs are not conveyed. Some people stand perfectly still and speak their message, others say nothing and with a wink and a nod deliver a novel. Also, we don't see each other in our "natural habitats", and most importantly not in interaction with our better halves.

So, if you knew me and the Admiral, you would know that we have a long term loving relationship, with utmost respect for each others strengths, a reluctant tolerance for each others weaknesses, but, very important, we share a rather twisted sense of humor. Also, she believes that LAT/LONG were improperly entered for her current reincarnation, and that she was to be born into royalty. So, I call her "The Admiral" or "The Empress" at home, in daily life, tongue in cheek. And then she smiles that regal smile. I am a captain, says so on my paycheck, she is the admiral. My 12 year old is first mate, and the little guy is swab, or buddy, or big guy.

Maybe other gents are using the reference in a cynical fashion, or in frustration because their other halves don't share the joy of sailing. I feel for them.

Also, for reasons I won't get into here, La Esposa is the official documented owner of Lady Kay, I am merely the Captain. (This makes her smile too, but in a loving way...)

Not all stories are the same. Sorry you're sensitive about it Frank....

I will henceforth refer to her as "Lady Kay" or "The Owner" And, she's reading over my shoulder and approves this message. (Oscar! Don't put that in there!)

(By the way, one of my titles is "Your Airworthiness", feel free to use it...

)

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - Oscar on 01/14/2005 19:16:06

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2005 : 19:14:37

Huh?

I don't know about in your world Frank, but in mine, the term "Admiral" is a term of affection and respect, similar to when one uses the term "my better half". It doesn't mean that I'm "emasculated", or have "abdicated my responsibilities", or have a "misguided sense of political correctness". To me, the term Admiral is a sign of deference and appreciation for my wife who doesn't bat an eye when I overwhelmingly use the majority of our discretionary funds to support a hobby that benefits mainly me. For the support and consideration she gives me, if she says she wants a fixed head or new cushions, then by golly, she's gonna get em!

As for referring to a spouse as the "First Mate", I would think this to be demeaning because it relegates that person to a lower subservient standing beneath the Captain. I prefer to put my wife on a pedastal with a rank to match.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2005 : 19:15:57

I don't know about this one Frank. When speaking of boating things, my wife of 32 years calls me "The Captain," even though she knows (and I know) that I don't order her around. To me, Admiral is merely a term of endearment, not a slight to her or any kind of statement regarding my manhood.

Considering that my pet nickname for her is "Little Heifer," she's not all that unhappy about "Admiral." My daughter is "Little Heifer, Jr." Neither one has a weight problem, by the way.

Steve

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2005 : 22:21:00

I... Uhhhhh... Er..... Hmmmm....... Oscar and Don pretty much said it for me. (Steve's nickname wouldn't have worked.) My late Admiral enjoyed the title. If the relationship is a little strained, then the use of that title could be misconstrued...

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2005 : 22:31:56

Martha just read the rant and thread. She says you guys are right and that I shouldn't be so insecure about my masculinity.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2005 : 23:18:22

Come here Frank, big hug.....

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2005 : 08:23:43

Unlike the majority of you, my wife hates sailing. It's a psychological thing having to do with the boat "tipping". It literally freaks her out. So, my wife is not endeared by the term "admiral". Rather, being a retired Army Major, she is the "Sergeant Major". I obviously don't use the term on this forum. In fact, I seldom use it at all. When I do it is usually in jest to lighten a tense moment - somehow standing at attention and explaining in a serious voice "yes sergeant major" brings a smile to her face and a twinkle to her eye. I strongly suspect that the term "admiral" is used in your households in much the same way, more as a term of endearment than anything. That being said, I should think that if the term offends anyone on the forum, we should try to limit it's use, as a curtasy(sp?) to Frank, if for no other reason.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2005 : 10:40:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 Unlike the majority of you, my wife hates sailing. It's a psychological thing having to do with the boat "tipping". It literally freaks her out...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Al, you are not alone.

If our boat heels more than 5 degrees, my wife has panic attacks. Interestingly, the closer we approach her heeling threshhold, the more she speaks like a sailor!

Some days are better than others, but generally when she is on the boat, we keep things on an even heel. This is why I'm primarily a singlehanded sailor.

I think this spouse sailing aversion thing is more the rule than the exception, at least in my marina it is. Of the ten sailors on my dock alone, I've met two, maybe three, of their spouses over the years. This also holds true for the rest of the sailboats in the marina.

To be fair though, their are two sailboats in the marina in which the wives are the sailors and the men are never seen.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2005 : 12:41:30

Spike is Spike. You don't tell her what to do and you don't tell her there's something a woman can't do. Other than that our relationship is much like Oscar's. A sense of humour on both sides is why we've been together 25 years.

By the way, Oscar, lovely post. You need to email that to Lady Kay, I'm sure any woman would feel wonderful to receive that message.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2005 : 13:22:44

Don and Al... This is a topic that has been knocked around here before, and is interesting to me. My wife's first sailing experience was on our first boat--a Sunfish, which of course can capsize. She quickly came to understand the relationship between the sheet, the rudder, the ballast (us), and the heel. She also learned that if you let go of the sheet, the tiller, or both, everything would stop. Somehow, in a bathing suit on a little boat where we were practically sitting in the water, the notion of heeling and possibly getting dumped was very non-threatening, and I think that's where the emotional foundation was set.

Our next stage was a 17' centerboard O'Day Daysailer. No ballast (except us), and again, plenty of opportunity to dump... But by then she knew that all you needed to do was ease or let go of things, and the boat would recover. But I know full-well that "understanding" that and emotionally dealing with "tipping" are two different things. I think the Sunfish was what got us over the emotional part. (And BTW, I really believe in a little weather helm.)

Our third stage was the C-25. I'm sure that it's the hardest of the three to deal with emotionally because (1) you're much higher above the water, (2) most of the ballast is stuff you cannot see and don't understand, and (3) it's BIG (on a relative scale). If an ocean liner heeled 10 degrees, I'd feel a little uneasy! Or a lot! Intellectually, I know the C-25 can't completely capsize unless a large, steep wave helps to push it over, but emotionally, I don't feel really comfortable past 30 degrees... And I've been sailing practically all of my life--including on a trapeze on a Hobie with a hull flying 5' out of the water. I just didn't really rely on invisible, unmovable ballast until the C-25--my first boat where the position of my own weight doesn't seem to mean much (and the boat could actually SINK).

But by this third stage, Barb was comfortable with the helm and the sheets, and and almost subconsciously knew how to control the heel with either. In fact, she had become impatient with being upright (meaning no appreciable wind or boat speed), and liked a little heel because it meant we were going somewhere (even if to nowhere).

So what's my prescription? Start small--really small--on a Sunfish in a bathing suit. There, heeling isn't "tipping"--it's just sailing; and tipping over is just going swimming (although it's not required). And all the relatiohships between wind, ballast, and controls become clear at a subconscious level. Start your "student" with the mainsheet, and quickly graduate her/him to the helm. Until that subconscious level is reached, the intellectual part just won't do it.

(Just talking about this, now I want to get another Sunfish! Anyone who hasn't skimmed across the water hiked out on on a super-responsive little board-boat like a Sunfish or Laser has missed some REAL sailing!)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/15/2005 13:56:44

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2005 : 14:15:31

" Anyone who hasn't skimmed across the water hiked out on on a super-responsive little board-boat like a Sunfish or Laser has missed some REAL sailing!"
Amen to that Dave!
Derek

Edited by - on

Grego5
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2005 : 14:19:36

My wife and I have both spent a large portion of our lives in the Navy (I'm Retired and she will be soon). For her the word Admiral (with few exceptions) does not return fond memories (both of us serve time on Admiral's staffs). Her thought is that an Admiral has some responsibility on-board and she does not. She does not handle lines, the wheel or winches. Infact she is the passenger and I like it that way. I enjoy single handing with the thought that someone can call for hep if needed (instructions are next to the radio). I sail she reads, sews, knits and makes stuff for the boat and it's driver.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2005 : 14:44:34

On the subject of significant others, I'm not married and I don't like the term "girlfriend", I think its about respect for each other and all which that entails. There are things I can do better than her and things she can do better than me so we compliment each other in that way. We're always on equal footing and it works for both of us. She gives up her time working on her house to go sailing with me and I give up my time sailing to work on her house. Its all about give and take.
As far as sailing goes, the only sailboat she's been on is my C25. The first time I took her out and there was significant heel it spooked her a little but it didn't take long before she learned the boat wasn't going to tip and it was just part of sailing. Now she'd rather be heeling than idling along with no wind.
I haven't taken her out on my Dolphin yet but I imagine that would scare her worse because she knows that can go over!

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2005 : 16:05:03

Dave,

We seem to have similar sailing backgkrounds. In fact, I started on an 11 ft Sunflower, at the suggestion of my wife, for something to do one summer. She to found some affinity for the sport while she was in a bathing suit and was bound to get wet. Things went the other way when I bought a 16' daysailer. Perhaps her fear was generated by the fact that my brother and I built the boat from a fiberglass Luger kit. That's when the real fear started anyway.

I shouldn't say that she totally hates sailing. Like driving a car, she feels a lot safer at the helm, in control. Sailing has to be on those calm, winds at 5 mph or less days. Any day I can get her out is great though. Like you, I have grown to become a single-hander, to include club racing on the inland lake we live on, Portage Lake, and on Lake Superior, which is connected to Portage Lake by canal. I have friends who occasionally sail with me, but for the most part I'm it. I like the company but have grown to like the challenge of single handed sailing.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2005 : 23:47:13

I kind of like First and Last mate.
She and I both know I'm the Admiral (Captain of course), but I don't rub it in.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2005 : 00:18:14

I feel fortunate that my wife is an active partner in the sailing and enjoys taking her turn, but is also willing to sit back & let me be the "Commander". She didn't like being called Admiral, so we settled on "Number 1". I seem to recall this is the British equivalent for the XO, which she is OK with.

However, if I screw up or get too uppity...well, she has a different name for me.

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2005 : 13:31:30

I have to agree with Frank on the rant. To be an Admiral, one must first work their way up to Captain, which implies one knows something about the operation of a boat. My wife couldn't tell which sail is the main and which is the jib - has no interest. Her position is passenger, when I let her on the boat.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2005 : 13:44:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Mason
 ...To be an Admiral, one must first work their way up to Captain, which implies one knows something about the operation of a boat...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I know plenty of captains (mostly powerboaters) who know very little about the operation of a boat.

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2005 : 18:25:38

Yes, I was thinking in the military sense of the rankings, but even so, most of the civilian captains probably know enough to get the boat out of the marina without too much damage inflicted on the immediate environs.

Edited by - on

seastream
Navigator

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USA
242 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2005 : 20:47:57

Doris & I are both late bloomers...in our mid 40's but only been married three years this July (first timers, both), so we're new at it. We've had a few arguments but never had a hissing match over 'who's the boss'. She teaches high school science, I'm a cell tech. Our paychecks go in the same account to pay all the bills, so we figured we must be equals. I call her 'Admiral' now and then, but it's in good humor...as is her calling me her 'Irascible Old Coot'. She likes sailing but prefers a calmer sail as opposed to the wilder moments when I'm trying to replicate one of the 'chase' scenes from 'Master & Commander'.

Edited by - on

sailorman
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2005 : 23:55:41

My wife has started and operates her own business. She does embroidery : company names, logos, that sort of thing on uniforms, shirts and the like. She made me a shirt with the boat name and "Captain" on it as well as shirts with "Crew" for our friends. On our first sail in the new boat, she shows up with the same shirt with "Admiral" on it. It's a joke-get it? Sailing is about fun. Got on the water and away from the computer.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2005 : 19:50:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sailorman
 It's a joke-get it? Sailing is about fun. Got on the water and away from the computer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Good for your Admiral! But there's a wee problem here... There are small craft warnings (winds 25-25) and it's 11 degrees F. The water is "thickening" around the docks, and the spray turns into birdshot. While I'm waiting for things to moderate a bit, I'll amuse myself with the forum.

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2005 : 21:20:33

Dan doesn't refer to me as admiral (at least not that I know of) & we swap duties as captain since we discovered sailing together. It took me a while to get used to heeling as well & I still don't like it past 20 degrees. Good thing the 250 doesn't like to heel much past 20 degrees either. I started with a Force 5 sailing dinghy (still have it) so maybe that helped. It took a while for my subconscience to trust that the big lead keel wouldn't let the boat flip. I actually prefer to be at the helm when things get "exciting" - it gives me a better feel of what's actually going on.

Edited by - on

tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2005 : 02:11:48

Frank, thanks for setting off this thread. I have thoroughly enjoyed it. Reading the above makes me appreciate my partner even more. We both were new to sailing when we met. She was racing with her brother on his Hobie and I was learning to sail from books on a Finn. I took her out on the Finn and she was bored. She took me out on the Hobie and we were flying a hull. Our first races together she skippered and I crewed but she preferred to crew so we traded places. We bought our own Hobie and raced it in our college years (extended by our taking turns getting degrees). Kids brought an end to our Hobie days as we could no longer go out together and the kids did not like it. Fiorghra has allowed us to be partners in sailing again. As others have said, I just want to sail, so she and the kids pick the venue.

Edited by - on

Waterboy
Navigator

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USA
204 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2005 : 13:44:43

The connotations a term or nickname carries are, IMHO, dependent more on the context, tone, and history of its use in a particular relationship than the specific denotation of the word. As a white male, the most glaring example of this is the 'N' word. I try to remember that others' use of a particular term may not carry the same connotations for the user as myself. Normally I disdain this sort of relativism, but unless the meaning of a word is clearly understood by all parties, miscommunication results.

My sweetheart, Rita, is pleased to be First Mate. The Admiral (onboard) or The Ambassador (ashore) refers to Vinnie, our 15 year old scruffy terrier mix still brimming with hybrid vigor.

As for heeling, Rita (with no sailing experience prior to the C250) has done amazingly well, preferring the deck work over the tiller. My Mother (her other nickname is Mom) on the other hand had eyes the size of pie tins in a moderate breeze.

Edited by - on

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