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jib sheets

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/27/2002 : 17:11:25

OK, Still thinking of a 150 for my 85 fin keel. My question is about the fairlead track. On my boat they go only as far as the drain channel in front of the cockpit. I saw on some other C25's that they go back all the way to the rear of the boat. For a 150 about where do you have your fairleads set. Is the track needed to go back that far for the jib or is it for a spinaker fairlead?
Matt
EC Rider
Cat 25 fin

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2002 : 19:01:11

Your tracks should be fine for flying you genoa, but if you are going to fly a spinnaker you will need something towards the stern for the spinnaker sheets. On my boat, the track does extend aft to accommodate a spinnaker track car, but some equipment sites state that padeyes mounted towards the stern are all you need to attach blocks for the spinnaker sheets. As for the position of the genoa track cars, these are generally set at a point on the track that bisects the angle made by the foot and leech of the headsail. From this point, the cars can be moved either fore or aft to power up/down the sail depending on conditions.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 03/27/2002 19:58:54

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2002 : 19:09:33

We position the fairleads about even with the Catalina insignia on the coamings for our 150.

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ(Ode to Joy)

[url="http://catalina25-250.org/photo0.htm/"]<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/ode075.jpg" border=0>[/url]

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 00:11:22

Matt - on "This Side Up" I fly a full cut 155% Genoa. In drifter conditions the genoa car is level with the stanchion, gradually moving back as the wind increases. When it's almost reefing time the car is 4 holes back from the stanchion.
Hope this helps.
Derek

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 02:37:11

Matt,

If you look up at "Ode to Joy's" photo, you can see where his genoa car is located. It's the black block that is just below the point where the rear of the cabin meets the cockpit coaming just aft of the third stanchion.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 03:52:22

The photo helps. With my smaller jib I have it set somewhere between the two windows. Going to windward I think I am just as fast if not faster than other boats at our lake. It's the running that does me in. I need more POWER.
Thanks for the help. I think it will work sans new track. Just got to convince my wife that new sails are an absolute must.
Matt

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 08:54:08

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
It's the running that does me in.
Matt

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Matt,

First, what are your current Main settings for running...vang, aftstay, cunningham...etc...

Second, for your admiral (er wife)... A set of second sails is almost a must. what if something were to happen to the first and you were stranded on the water. Just for safeties sake you should have a spare set available. If I recall in the coastguard sub-appendix section 23-5C section 9A. All Sailboats of a length of 25 feet or more must carry a second set of sails in case of an emergency. If that doesn't work, try flowers and dinner and a good chick flick...

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 11:06:51

Duane - I bet that you could sell refrigerators to Eskimos...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 13:32:58

Duane,
I am printing your letter to show my wife. If a divorce comes of it I,m blaming you. As for main settings; I have a vang that I use on down wind runs, back stay is non-adjusting, never used a cunningham and not sure how, two reefing points in main, one reefing point in the jib (regular small size) (haven't used it but the guy I got the boat from did in SF bay). Out hall with a couple of pullies, will be fixing up a little better setup.
Matt

Matt
EC Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 14:25:59

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Duane,
I am printing your letter to show my wife. If a divorce comes of it I,m blaming you. As for main settings; I have a vang that I use on down wind runs, back stay is non-adjusting, never used a cunningham and not sure how, two reefing points in main, one reefing point in the jib (regular small size) (haven't used it but the guy I got the boat from did in SF bay). Out hall with a couple of pullies, will be fixing up a little better setup.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Other than trying to not to run too far downwind, the only thing I can think of is to let out on your outhaul a bit. If you had a cunningham, I would have told you to loosen it. Same goes for the aftstay adjuster, which you don't have...Depending on how tight your main halyard is, you might try letting that off just a touch....

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 15:35:08

Matt - you also can try easing both halyards about 1/2", moving the jib car forward a couple of holes, and most important - do not sail dead downwind. Keep the windex arrow on the windward tab, even if it means frequent minor course changes. If using a whisker pole, keep the pole & the boom in a straight line. IMHO downwind sailing takes constant concentration and sail trim adjustment (we don't have automatic transmissions) - learn to do it well and you will start to eat your competitor's lunch! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek on "This Side Up" C25 TRFK #2262

Edited by - on

teamwike
1st Mate

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82 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 22:27:04

What do you speed kings do about reaching? I loose most ground on the reaching legs. I move the leds forward to keep the leech from opening too much.(sail a standard 150) I have seen other boats use wiskerpoles not fully extended to help open the slot?
Max in Jaxs

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2002 : 00:45:06

Max - here's a few tips:-
1. Ease the main until all the leech telltales are flying (on "This Side Up" the optimum position seems to be where the end of the boom is over the genoa track - not eased as far as you would expect)
2. Have your jib trimmer hold the sheet in his hand and "work" it to maintain the maximum pressure.(Remember - we don't have automatic transmissions!)
3. Try to keep the boat on a true beam reach (it's fastest) with the windex pointing at 90 degrees.
4. Protect your air - if a boat tries to pass to windward,luff him up
5. Keep the halyards eased until you're almost at the next mark, and no backstay tension.
6. Ease the outhaul to put fullness in the foot of the sail, and don't have any cunningham tension (if you have one).
7. Always aim to have an inside overlap at the next mark...
8. Have a loose rig!!!
Good racing and Good Luck!
Derek

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2002 : 02:57:54

Just about all my sailing has been the laid back kind of approach. I have read a lot of the basic stuff on how to go fast, but your tips seem to be more understandable to me. Perhaps it is just helping bring the stuff from the hinder reageon of my mind. Now I just need a little more water in our summer lake to put the boat in.:)

Matt
EC Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2002 : 12:51:33

Matt,

When running downwind, try these suggestions:

Sail Adjustment

When running in most wind strengths, ease all sail tension devices (including halliards, outhaul, downhaul, cunningham, backstay adjuster). This will give the sails a full shape. Put just enough tension on the boom vang to hold the boom down. (In the absence of the boom vang, puffs of wind will cause the boom to lift. When the boom lifts, it reduces the effective sail area that is exposed to the wind. In other words, your sails generate less power. Also, when the boom lifts, there is a risk that it will gybe unintentionally.)

When running, set your whisker pole, with one end attached to the jib and the other end attached to the fitting on your mast. The pole's adjustment should be telescoped out as far as possible. If you set a lightweight pole in winds that are too strong, your pole will bend under stress, so, consider the windstrength before you set the pole, to avoid damaging it. Practice setting it and taking it down, before you set it in a race.

If you don't have a whisker pole, set your sails wing-and-wing and steer dead downwind in strong winds. In light winds, broad reach downwind, alternating from starboard tack to port tack from time-to-time, especially when you encounter persistent windshifts that take you closer to the mark. When broad reaching or running, keep an eye out for puffs of wind running down the lake, and steer for them whenever they are close enough.

Boat Balance

When running or broad-reaching downwind in light air, have all crew seated as far out on the lee rail as they can be, ask them to sit very still, and crew should not change their position without asking the skipper's permission. (By putting the crew's weight on the lee rail, they induce the boat to heel slightly to leeward. When the boat heels, the outboard end of the boom dips closer toward the water, and gravity prevents the boom from gybing. In these light-air conditions, the balance of the boat is very delicate, and if the crew shifts its weight, the sails will spill their air, and the boom might gybe unintentionally. Also, when the boat heels, gravity causes heavy dacron sails to hang in the curved shape that is designed to drive the boat. If the boat does not heel, the sails will hang straight down, like a sheet on a clothesline, and in that configuration they will generate little or no power. In ultra-light air conditions, if you have dacron sails, take 6-7 crew, or more, along with you to use as movable ballast. Two or three won't be enough weight to induce our heavily ballasted boats to heel enough to make the sails hang properly. The benefit that you will gain by having your sails continuously driving the boat will far outweigh the detriment caused by the weight of all those crewmembers.

Steering

If the wind is blowing hard, steer dead downwind, with the sails set wing-and-wing. If the wind is lighter, find a compromise course, somewhere between dead downwind and a broad reach, that will keep the boat moving in the general direction of the leeward mark. If the wind is light, look all around you for puffs of wind, and when you see a puff coming down the lake, try to position your boat so that you are on the leading edge of it when the puff arrives. Watch the boats ahead of you and behind you. Frequently you will see them change course because they have sailed into a windshift. Steer your boat so that, when you get to the windshift, or when the windshift gets to you, you will be able to take maximum advantage of it.

In moderate to strong winds, you can be very competitive with your small jib, and even win. In light air, you will be at more of a disadvantage, but you can still dog the leaders, if you make the most of what you have.

Max, with regard to reaching, I agree with Derek's suggestions, but would add a couple thoughts.

Suggestion #2: As Derek says, the jibsheet should be played in and out to adjust to changes in wind direction and strength, all along the reaching leg. Ideally, the jibsheet should never be cleated on the reaching leg. By playing the jibsheet in the lifts and headers, you can maintain the highest possible speed all along the reaching leg.

Suggestion #4: Derek suggests you protect your air, and I agree. However, don't forget that you are not only racing against the boat that is trying to pass you. You are racing against the entire fleet. If you stray too far off the course in a determined effort to keep that boat behind you, the rest of the fleet will beat you. You need to decide whether it is to your advantage, overall, to hold him off or to just let him go by. If, for example, he has a much bigger handicap than you, and if you are close to the finish line, let him go by, because you will probably beat him on handicap anyway.

I'll add one more suggestion. When you round the mark and establish your course toward the reaching mark, observe all the indicators available to you, and develop a plan (which, of course, you might have to discard, if the plan doesn't work.) Watch the boats ahead of you, and see if any of them are being lifted or headed by a windshift, or if they are encountering a significant change in windstrength. If they are, then plan your course so that you make the most of the conditions. Sometimes, when the reaching mark is set close to shore, boats will be either lifted or headed as they get close to the mark. If you see that other boats are being headed off to leeward of the mark as they get close to it, then adjust your course closer to windward, so that, when you get headed, you will still be able to fetch the mark without tacking.

In fact, a lot of racers sail the entire course without a plan. They react to what they encounter. Every time you round a mark, you should quickly develop a plan for the next leg of the course. When a plan works, you usually gain a lot, but when it fails, you are seldom penalized for having tried it.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - steve milby on 03/29/2002 14:42:31

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2002 : 03:12:26

Steve, Derick, Duane, et. al.
I talked to the lady that does my taxes today. There is new hope of getting new sails:)
thank you all for all the assistance. I printed this thread and am going to study it throughly and perhaps laminate it to keep on the boat.
Now just need more water. The report I heard was that last week the water was 4 feet low still. Will try and head out tomorrow to servey the situation.
Thanks Again

Matt
EC Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK

Edited by - on

teamwike
1st Mate

Members Avatar

82 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2002 : 14:03:07

Thanks Guys,
I'll give it a try on the next race. I'l let you know how I do. The next race for us is the Mug Race in Jax, Fl. Most of the race is a broad reach.

Max in Jax

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