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Snag druring Mast Raising leads to Question

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JB007
Deckhand

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USA
20 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/19/2005 : 04:38:16

Hello Everyone,

My name is John Bartelt and I'm a Newbie living at Lake Pueblo, which is located about 100 miles south of Denver, Colorado.

First of all I wish to thank all the people here for sharing their time, knowledge and experience. I consider this organization, as well as this Forum, to be a very valuable resource. I've learned a lot here about my new (to me) 84 Catalina 25 TR/SK including how to build the highly recommended A-Frame. I built mine from 2 pieces of 10' long 1" diameter Electrical EMT conduit and added the two 4" nipples that fit very nicely over the front chainplates.

The foot of the mast was bolted to the mast tabernacle and the mast was resting on the "Mast-up". I had the the shrouds and backstays untangled and ready. I shackled the forestay to one of (2) tangs that were secured to the top of the A-Frame by the 1/4" bolt and nut that I used to hold the top of the A-Frame together. Then I shackled a rope (excuse me), a sheet to the second tang. The sheet was fed through a pully mounted to the forestay stem and fed back to a winch in the cockpit. Prevailing winds were about 8mph. No problem! Didn't notice much side sway. The mast went up fairly easily. That does not mean that I wasn't seriously anxious while raising this mast for the first time but the mast went up without a hitch.

The really fun part came when I tried to connect the forestay to the stem fitting. All shrouds and turnbuckles were straight up and the adjustable split backstay was loosened yet I still needed about 3 inches to pin the forestay toggle to the stem fitting. I loosened the backstay to the Max before opening up the forestay turnbuckle just enough to connect the forestay. Then I connected and tightened the front shrouds and proceeded to check the standing rigging. And here I come to my question.

I found the uppers to be extremely tight (without having touched them). I think if the boat was a large acoustic guitar I could play the cords to "Love Me Tender" on those shrouds. That's how tight they are. The boat is still on the trailer but the mast looks to be straight. I'll have to wait until I get it in the water before I can check mast plumb and fiddle with the turnbuckles. Although the old rigging still looks like its in good shape, I have ordered new rigging from Catalina Direct because I don't trust the old rigging and I most of all I wanted the open faced turnbuckles to see how much bolt I still have available.

Bill Holcomb has posted some excellent mast tuning instructions on this Forum but nowhere does he say exactly to what extent the shrouds and stays should be tightened. He uses terms like "tight" and "very tight".

When checking other sailing web sites, I found some that recommend using tension gauges and they even specify the exact tension factor one is supposed to adjust the shrouds and stays at.

I can cetainly play around with those turnbuckles as well as anybody else can but I think I need some specific instruction or guidelines on how to determine or set the required tightness on the standing rigging of my new 84 Cat 25 TR/SK.

What do all of you do? I can't imagine that you just do it "by feel"

Thanks very much.

John Bartelt

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2005 : 05:43:53

i'd check the side to side dimenstion to see if the mast is perpenticular to the boat.
for some reason, and i don't why, but the mains are too tight..
i would looden and go for a sail. someone may have srcewed with the turnbuckles and maybe to PO just had them that tight .

i personally like just a snug rig.

thanks for the input on the a frame.

have a good sail
dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
hard and dry near carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2005 : 10:16:24

John, did you loosen the upper shrouds BEFORE raising the mast? If not, that probably explains your difficulty in securing the forestay. I always bring my whole rig up very 'loose' and then tighten down when in the water to avoid the connection issues.

It's interesting how things calm down once the boat's in the water and the trailer parked. Launch ramps and parking lots (for some reason) are a very stessful place.

Another very common 'gotcha' to watch for is a 'cocked' or bound-up fitting at the cable-mast connection. That will put the whole rig in a bind and possibly ruin the shroud if the rig is brought up tight with things crossed up.

Once you have the rig tuned, marking the turnbuckle-thread junction with a permanent marker will or a wrap of rigging tape will let you get back to a setup more easily.

IMHO 'twangy'tight is way too tight for the uppers. They should be snug and tight, but not twangy (heh, big help, I know). Rig tension settings are really hard to describe and without a Loos gauge, it's all done by feel.

Wandering around the marina and noting the stay tensions on similar boats can be instructive. (pick boats that look like they are well cared for and sailed often!). Better yet, you can probably find an experienced sailor to give you some advice/assistance in tuning your rig. I've found most sailors are fiendly and helpful... in fact, I don't think I've met one yet who wasn't. It's an 'avocation' that attracts pretty decent people.

Edited by - ClamBeach on 03/19/2005 10:17:46

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2005 : 10:16:39

John,

Welcome to the forum.

A boat's standing rigging has to be tuned, initially, by adjusting all the shrouds so that, in actual use, they perform in the way that they should perform. You describe that method as tuning "by feel," but it's really more a matter of tuning by using all your powers of observation, not just your sense of touch.

The following applies to a boat without an adjustable backstay. There are certain general results that you want to accomplish when you tune your rig. First, you want to set up the mast so that it's erect fore-and-aft, as well as abeam. Next, you want the mast to be straight. Finally, you want the shrouds that hold up the mast to be adjusted with enough tension so that the mast doesn't flop loosely from side to side each time you tack.

Those really aren't conditions that you have to "feel." They're conditions that you can see and measure. For example, if your upper shrouds are too loose, you'll be able to see that condition clearly each time you tack the boat while sailing to windward, because the windward shrouds will be very tight, and the leeward shrouds will be loose, sometimes waving with the motion of the boat. When you see that your shrouds are that loose, you should adjust them a little tighter, until the tension on the leeward shrouds just begins to relax, but is not so loose that they wave around while beating to windward.

So far as the tension on the headstay and backstay are concerned, if you want absolute, perfect tension on them, you should adjust them for the windstrength that you will be sailing in on any given day. In light air, they should be looser. As the windstrength increases, the tension should be increased. The indicator that tells you if the tension is right for the wind conditions is to look at the amount of headstay sag. There should be enough tension so that the headstay does not sag appreciably in the strongest gusts.

In reality though, most people adjust their rigs so that they perform reasonably well over a broad range of winds, and leave them that way all summer, and there's nothing wrong with that. If the rig is tuned that way, the boat will generally perform very well.

After you have tuned the rig in that manner, you can use a loos gauge to fine tune it to the nth degree. I've never seen any recommended loos gauge settings that are specific to the Catalina 25. Some of the people on this forum who use loos gauges (I don't) can tell you what tensions they use.

You're more likely to find reliable loos gauge settings for racing boats than for cruiser-racers, like the C25.

When Bill Holcomb uses terms like "tight" and "very tight," he's not trying to give exact amounts. He's just trying to describe how you can get in the right ballpark. The final test is to watch how the shrouds act when under sail.

If you set up your rig using these "performance standards," so that the shrouds perform in this way, your boat will be fully competitive with any C25 that has been tuned according to loos gauge settings. After all, it's performance that counts.

Edited by - on

JB007
Deckhand

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USA
20 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2005 : 03:19:19

Dave, thanks for your comments. Yeah, I am suspecting that someone may have screwed with the turnbuckles, for whatever reason.

Clam, I had not paid particular attention to the mast-cable connections. Just generally looked at the wires around the masthead for possible crossovers or other problems and didn't see any before raising the mast. Looking at this area now, with binoculars, doesn't reveal any mast-cable bindups or cross-overs at the mast head sheaves either. I will add your recommendations to my pre-mast raising inspection list as well as the other points you raised.

Steve, since our boats have 5/16" wire, we would have to buy one of the larger tension gauges starting at about $180. But since neither Catalina nor this Association publishes what the tension settings should be, I don't see much point in buying one. I am going to follow your recommendations when tuning my mast.

Thanks guys for your well thought out responses.

I wish you Good Sailing!

John Bartelt
84 Cat TR/SK # 4406

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2005 : 18:23:48

A rule of thumb that I read somewhere, can't remember where, said: 1 tighten all turnbuckles by hand till tight, then 2. wrench them three more turns. Now go sailing with a light breeze. The pressure will loosen the leeward side, the side away from where the wind is coming from. tighten these to take up the slack. come about and do the same.
In regards to lowers, if you have an old main I'd tighten teh forwards more than the aft ones to put a little curve in the mast to flatten out an old sail.
You will quickly note that there are main varied opinions about rig tension, take some different idas and try them out for your self. This will give you experience adjusting your rig and most important will give you confidence in your own abilities. Trial and error are great, just don't drop the mast.

PS The only shrouds I loosen are the forward lowers, by a set count so I can re set quickly. I leave the uppers and rear lowers alone.

Edited by - MattL on 03/20/2005 18:25:53

JB007
Deckhand

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USA
20 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2005 : 01:04:52

Matt, thanks for the additional good points you raised.

If I don't forget to put the clevis pins in my new open-faced turnbuckles, the mast should stay up, I would hope.

John

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2005 : 09:11:00

I loosen the uppers when raising and lowering. The mast pivot point is in the center. the mast will rock upward slightly and put a lot of pressure on everything. I only like the pressure being on me!

As for rigging tension. I always adjust in the water as I have found it will change as the boat is in the water floating normally. I like the rig tight enough that the mast does not shake too much with a flogging jib. Not very scientific, but, I do not race either.

Tom.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2005 : 13:36:10

Steve - could you re-post your instructions for tuning with an adjustable backstay?

I've got the fastest boat in Fleet 7 upwind if windspeed is 10 knots or more. With my fin, I can outpoint all the wings by a lot. Off the wind I lose ground to the TR/WKs. My mast is raked way aft. I can outpoint almost everyone on the water and rarely feel any weatherhelm with my balanced rudder - even at heel angles up to 40 degrees, although above 35 and I'm putting in the flattening reef at least.

I use the outhaul and traveller quite a bit - although these have a very subtle effect. I move the genoa sheet blocks around all the time to powerup or dampen my 135 (which is usually up although I also have 60, 110, and 155). I do a lot of adjustments to mainsheet draft using the outhaul, halyard, and topping lift. I hike out as far as possible when the winds are good with a tiller extender and sit on the lee side in light air. No one tacks faster.

By your instructions above, my rig is way too loose. The lee shrouds flap around quite a bit. The aft lowers get real tight when I pull up on the backstay. My forward lowers are quite slack in all conditions.

I generally tighten the backstay all the way in strong winds, put it in the middle for light winds, and slacken all the way sailing downwind. Slackend all the way, the forestay is like a wet noodle (very limp).

I would like to learn to use this backstay adjustment tool better.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2005 : 14:25:33

Advice is what this forum is all about, Steve has yet to give bad advice. A guy named Wallace Ross is pretty reliable too. Add this to your library.
Sail Power by Wallace Ross
Search for it at Amazon, I just bought a copy for under $6. There are more.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 03/21/2005 20:08:50

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2005 : 17:02:45

I need to get a used copy of that book. Fleet 7 has one which we loan around. Right now Ken on the S2 is using it.

I came in 2nd in both races last time we were out. Once losing to Classical Cat by a nose and once losing to Endeavor (the S2) by a nose. Both times I was passed on the downwind leg.

I don't like coming in 2nd............

Once these guys learn where the race bouys are I may not have a chance!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2005 : 20:42:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Steve - could you re-post your instructions for tuning with an adjustable backstay?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I can't just post the part on the adjustable backstay, because it refers to the non-adjustable part, and it wouldn't make sense.

Mast Tuning

Before we discuss the processes that should be used in tuning your rig, let’s think about how each stay functions. Each stay has a specific purpose, to provide support from a specific direction, and to prevent the mast from bending in an improper direction or to an excessive extent. If your rig is properly tuned, the tightened backstay will pull the top of the mast aft. The headstay will limit the distance that the top of the mast can tilt or bend aft. The forward lowers will resist the pull of the backstay and prevent the lower part of the mast from moving aft. At the same time, the forward lowers will provide lateral support to the lower portion of the mast, to keep the lower part of the mast from sagging to leeward. The uppers will provide lateral support to the top of the mast, to keep it from sagging off to leeward. As the tension on the backstay adjuster increases, it will exert a downward force on the mast. The mast step and keel will resist the downward force on the mast. Since the mast can't move downward, to release the pressure, the mast will bow in the middle. Because the forward lowers are adjusted snugly, and the aft lowers are adjusted loosely, the lower part of the mast can only bend one way, i.e. forward. As the lower part of the mast bows forward, the aft lowers will become taut, and prevent the mast from bending so far out of column as to damage the mast. In order for the backstay adjuster to work properly, the stays have to be adjusted with differing tensions, so that they allow the mast to bend in the proper direction. If all the upper and lower mast stays are snugged down to more or less the same tension in all directions, when you pull on the backstay adjuster, the mast won’t bend, because the stays will prevent any part of the mast from moving in any direction.

Boat Without Adjustable Backstay

Begin tuning your rig by alternately tightening the headstay and backstay turnbuckles until the headstay and backstay have little or no sag, but so that they are not bar-tight.

Next, loosen all your lower stays just enough to take the tension off them. Then, tighten the upper stays snugly by an equal number of turns on each side. Next, take your jib halyard, and use it as a measuring device (you might need to tie a piece of line onto it, to lengthen it), to make sure that the distance from the top of your mast to the chainplate for the upper stay on the starboard side of your boat is the same as the distance from the top of your mast to the chainplate for the upper stay on the port side of your boat. If the distance is not equal, adjust your upper stays until the distance is equal on both sides. That will ensure that your mast does not lean more to one side than the other.

Now, adjust your forward lower stays until the slack is just taken out of them. Then continue tightening them, alternately by an equal number of turns, until they are as tight as you can comfortably get them by hand. Then do the same with your aft lowers. Lie down on the coach roof, and sight up the mainsail track, to see if the mast is straight. If so, then use tools to tighten each lower stay a little more, alternately by an equal number of turns, until the tension of the lower stays is snug, and equal all around. Sight up the mast again to be sure it is still straight. If it is not, then make such adjustments to the lower stays as are necessary to make it so.

Tighten the locknuts on all your turnbuckles, including the uppers, lowers, headstay and backstay. With these adjustments, your mast will not be perfectly adjusted, but it should be "in the neighborhood." Sail the boat, and observe whether it has excessive weather helm or lee helm. It will probably have excessive weather helm. If the boat has excessive weather helm, readjust all the stays so that the entire mast is tilted further forward. If the boat has excessive lee helm, readjust all the stays so that the entire mast is tilted further aft. If you do not have an adjustable backstay, you are done.

Boat with Adjustable Backstay

If you have an adjustable backstay, you have a little more adjustment to do. Make sure that the tension on the backstay adjuster is completely released. Then loosen the turnbuckle on the headstay until the headstay is slack. Next, adjust the aft lowers until they are slack. Then apply strong tension to the backstay adjuster. Adjust the headstay so that the mast tip bends aft about 8-9 inches when the backstay adjuster is tensioned. When the backstay adjuster is eased, the headstay should be quite slack. Adjust the aft lowers so that they become tight when the backstay is tensioned. The way to do that is to apply the maximum tension on the backstay adjuster. Then adjust the aft lowers until they just become taut. When you release the tension on the backstay adjuster, the aft lowers will become slack. When you re-apply the backstay tension, the aft lowers will become taut again. To increase the amount of mast bend, loosen the headstay and the aft lowers, but do not allow your eagerness for speed to cloud your judgment.

Sail the boat again, and observe whether it has excessive weather helm when the backstay adjuster is fully tensioned. If the boat has excessive weather helm, then readjust all the stays so that the entire mast is tilted further forward.

Jim, judging from your description, don't do anything different. It sounds like you're doing everything about right.

It also sounds like your shrouds are tuned about right. Your headstay is very slack when the backstay is eased, but it becomes taut when the backstay is tensioned. (That gives you power downwind, and no headstay sag when you go to windward.) Your aft lowers are slack when the backstay is eased, but they become taut when it's tensioned. (When they become taut, they prevent your mast from bending too far.) Light tiller pressure means your rig is balanced fore and aft pretty well, and that the rudder isn't creating too much drag.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2005 : 20:55:05

>The lee shrouds flap around quite a bit.

"Loose ones go fast"... for awhile. (see last comment)

>The aft lowers get real tight when I pull up on the backstay.
>My forward lowers are quite slack in all conditions.

Hmmm... that part about the slack forward lowers doesn't sound quite right... I've always thought the forward lowers are supposed to be set 'reasonably snug' the backstay off... with the the aft lowers being the 'loose ones' in that state.

As you tighten the backstay the aft lowers will tighten as you introduce mast bend and the forwards will loosen a bit at the same time. With the backstay set in a mid-position, the tension on the forward and aft lowers would be fairly even.

Remember the lowers also control mid-mast bend in the side-to-side plane.
Run things too loose and you risk having the mast pop out of column under stess... or start oscillating under load. (remember the old thread on the 'inverted mast')?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2005 : 21:07:30

Clambeach is right about your forward lowers. They have to be fairly taut, to hold the lower part of your mast in place when you apply tension to the backstay adjuster. If they're too loose, the whole mast tilts aft. If they're taut, only the upper part of the mast bends aft, which is what you want. It tightens the forestay and pulls the mainsail pocket forward.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2005 : 17:36:22

Backstay loose
- forward lowers tight
- aft lowers snug (not too tight, not limp)
- forestay slack

Backstay tight
- forward lowers snug
- aft lowers tight
- forestay tight

Main shrouds adjusted tight and keeping the mast in column in all conditions. Leeward shrouds just barely loose in strong winds when close hauled.

Let me check the forward lowers, I think they may be a little too lose, everything else is OK.

After 2 years sailing nearly everyday I am just now starting to be able to see the draft in the sails and attempt to control its fullness and position.

Thank you guys very much.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2005 : 23:45:36

I printed this whole thread and put it in my C25 Binder. I apply the combined wisdom I find here with 'Sail Power'...I use post it notes to cross reference from C25 specific knowledge. I'll be a sailor yet, thanx to you guys.

Edited by - on

JB007
Deckhand

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USA
20 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2005 : 03:42:31

My C-25 has an adjustable backstay that I 've been trying to figure out how to use effectvely.

Everyone's advice on mast trim on this tread has been astounding to me. I have printed it out for reference and am getting the book Sail Power by Wallace Ross as well.

Good Sailing to you.

John Bartelt
C-25 TR/SK
#4406

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2005 : 09:37:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JB007
 ...Everyone's advice on mast trim on this tread has been astounding to me. I have printed it out for reference...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Me, too!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2005 : 09:38:15

"I am just now starting to be able to see the draft in the sails "

Wonder how much it costs to have a draft stripe added? I'm going to get a new main this spring (I guess that's now) from Ullman or North... I'll have to remember to ask what one costs on a new sail.

Other than that, tell-tales are among your best friends when it comes to sail trim... and they're cheap. I've always had them on my jibs... think I'll stick some on my current main and see what they tell me.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2005 : 10:44:10

Lets move this thread to the new "Tech Tips" forums so that it stays around.

I'll take care of it. Or I should say that Spike will take care of it - however - she is starting a new job today (her first job outside the home in 16 years).

I asked her to let me know when she has earned her first $851.25 (New Ulman full batten, loose footed main). Of course I want my US Sailing numbers, 2nd reef, and draft stripes so maybe I'll have to kick in a little more.

Edited by - JimB517 on 03/23/2005 10:46:54

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2005 : 01:12:21

Just sent in my taxes, I might be able to convince my wife we need a new main, oh bottom job too. well you know the story.

Edited by - on

barmstro
1st Mate

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34 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2005 : 05:23:14

Hi John One thing I do differerntly when raising the mast is that I attach the cleated off Jib halyard to the "A" frame to raise the mast.I use my main sheet hooked to the bow where the jib attaches and the other end to the "A" frame. This way I can realy pull the top of the mast forward to attach the fore stay without to much trouble. Plus this way some thing is always holding up the mast I also use quick release pins on the forward shouds. these are very tight. Sounds like your already on your way. good luck

Edited by - on

JB007
Deckhand

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USA
20 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2005 : 11:32:07

Bob, thanks for your post.

I am confused on this issue. What do you mean by "I attached the cleated off Jib halyard to the "A" frame"?

After I got my mast up and the toggle to within 3 inches of the stem fitting, I got my final leverage by sticking a nail into the center hole of the old (closed) turnbuckle, looping a line around it that I then hooked up to the trailer winch. Something told me that this wasn't the best way (I bent 3 nails and snapped one line).

Would appreciate some clarification on the best way to do this.

Thanks.

John Bartelt
C25 TR/SK
#4406

Edited by - on

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