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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Halyard woes

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kayest
Deckhand

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12 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/19/2005 : 11:18:24

My apologies in advance if this is a stupid question, but I can not quite figure out how to secure my mainsail halyard. We recently acquired a 1980 C25 and have been out sailing a few times, realizing something must be wrong but not quite knowing what to do about it.

Our halyard is part wire and part rope. This picture shows how we have been sailing. It also makes obvious that we are not hoisting the sail all the way up.

The problem is that the wire to rope junction would be in the cleat if the sail were all the way hoisted. I certainly don't want to wrap the spliced portion around the winch.

I believe the previous owner installed this small turning block at the base of the mast. It is screwed into the cabin top forward of the interior bulkhead. The screws do not go clear through the cabin so there is no backing plate.

The halyard leads back to a flimsy cleat on the cabin top near the cockpit.

We could hoist the main all the way and cleat it at the cockpit. This would put all the load on the flimsy turning block and the flimsy cleat.

What are we doing wrong and how should we secure the halyard?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 11:23:40

where's your halyard winches?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5908 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 11:57:39

Your photos aren't showing, and my opinion might change if I actually saw the arrangement, but I would hoist the main all the way and cleat it at the cockpit, until I installed a better arrangement. I have seen lots of turning blocks mounted in that location, and don't know whether most of them are through-bolted, but the deck at that point is fairly thick plywood, and, if the wood is in good condition, and if there are about four wood screws holding the turning block, it should hold reasonably well. Also, the tension on the main halyard isn't usually as great as the tension on the jib halyard. Finally, that arrangement has probably been used by the PO for at least several years, and is probably at least nominally adequate. I agree with you, however, that a stronger arrangement would be better.

Edited by - on

kayest
Deckhand

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12 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 12:14:11

Jim-

The three winches on the boat are the mast mounted one shown and the two on the sides of the cockpit as pictured in your boat, Indiscipline. We've been using the ones on the sides of the cockpit for the jib sheets.

-Steve

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 12:35:39

Suggest you post your photos to somewhere like www.shutterfly.com and then link them here as they are not viewable as is.

Steve

Edited by - on

kayest
Deckhand

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12 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 12:42:02

My apologies. Didn't realized that my picture host required login. Of course I was logged in so everything looked fine to me. Here are the Pics.

Thanks for your patience.

-Steve

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 13:11:16

You should be able to take the wire for a turn around the winch without any problem. We used to do that before we switched to all rope halyards

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 13:39:12

The sail that is attached to the boom is the mainsail, and it is raised by the wire halyard that goes up to the aftermost sheave at the top of the mast. The other (rope) end of the main halyard should be tied to the cleat on the starboard (right) side of the mast.

The sail that is attached to the forestay is the jib, and it is raised by the wire halyard that goes up to the forwardmost sheave at the top of the mast. After it goes over the sheaves at the top of the mast, the wire jib halyard should be wrapped around the winch two or three times (if the halyard is standard length) when the sail is fully raised, and then the rope end should go through the turning block and the rope end should be cleated to the clam cleat on the cabin top near the cockpit.

Because of the way it is set up, I think you have to go forward to the mast to raise the jib. The usual reason why you lead the halyards aft to the cockpit is so you can raise and lower the sails without leaving the cockpit. Your arrangement only allows you to lower the jib from the cockpit. In order to both raise and lower it, I think you will have to change over to all-rope halyards, and strengthen the system.

I (foolishly) never led my halyards to the cockpit, so I'll let others suggest the ways that you can do it.

Until you modify the system, I still think you can use it as it is, so long as you go to the mast to raise the sail. Wrapping the wire halyard around the winch will take some of the load off the turning block, and it should be strong enough for ordinary daysailing.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/19/2005 13:43:34

kenobie51
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 13:48:51

Kayest,
All questions welcomed. That is what this forum is for.
In your picture of the winch on the mast, is that halyard cleated below the winch the jib or main? On mine, I use that winch for the jib halyard. Three or four turns of the wire around the winch, splice is between the winch and the cleat. Only rope around the cleat. I do not have any lines leed aft, so the cleat on the starboard side of the mast is used for the main halyard. Looking at that same photo, it could be your stop slug in the mast slot is set too high, not letting the boom come down far enough. Hard to see, but it looks like your stop is sitting on top of the mast slot mounted cleat. This cleat should be lower, and the line attached to the bottom of the boom gooseneck should be cleated to it. When the main is fully raised, pull down on this line to tension the luff and cleat it. There should be space between the boom gooseneck and the stop slug. Also, that hook being used to hold the clew of main is not the normal setup. Should be a pin through where the hook bolt is and sail clew. The arragement you have is letting the clew lift about two inches higher than is should.

Hope this helps

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 14:50:35

Kayest,

Here are some alternate arrangement thoughts:

On Hey Jude I have neither winch at the mast, nor winch on the cabin top to raise or tighten the mainsail.

What I do have is mast gates (to prevent the slugs from falling out of the mast slot), lines led aft with clutches at the aft end of the cabin top, about where winches would be, and a boom down-haul to tighten the fore end of the boom. So, I hoist by hand til the main is all the way up then use the boom down-haul to adjust the main.

The boom down-haul is a three-part purchase (block hangs down from the cast part of the fore boom, a block connected to my mast base plate, a 90 degree turning block and jaw cleat a foot up from the mast base plate. Line starts at the fore boom, down around the base plate block, up around the fore boom block, down around the 90 degree block and through the jaws). I can really tighten down the fore boom this way. It also works like a cunningham, although I have one of those too.

Leading all lines aft make it much easier to single hand (which I do usually). My roller furler helps with the jib handling. I have first and second reefing with single lines, i.e. pull the first reefing line and the sail pulls down to the first reefing points. I only have to go on deck to clear a foul or tie the reefing strings when I really need to use the vang to flatten the reefed sail.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 15:11:32

I like your non-pop-top. You will have room to put lots of hardware on your cabintop. What is the hardware that looks to be in the boom vang position? You should take some pictures from farther back and let us see everything. I don't know that I have ever seen slugs on a boom before. The hook you are using is for your reef not your tack. Larry is right about where to connect the tack. You say you are not hoisting the sail all the way up; do you mean that? Larry's comment about the boom downhaul is right if your sail is all the way up and you simply do not have enough luff tension. If your sail is getting stuck before it gets to the top then that is a different issue.

What is your general sailing knowledge level? We all start somewhere and sometime so if you need some vocabulary explained just ask.

You might want to use the link in my sig to see some hardware that is typical of what people do to their Catalina 25.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 15:49:54

My two cents:

- take a few more pics like Frank Said

As for your halyards - It doesn't look like there was any modification to the rig based on the few pics you've shown. I disagree with Steve regarding sides of the boat that the Halyards are on. It really doesn't make a difference in the main is on Port or Starboard, just that if your in the starboard sheave (pulley) at the top of the mast, the line comes down on the starboard side at the base of the mast.

Your small block to run the halyard aft to a jam cleat doesn't look like it is very strong. If that is your main, I would take two turns around the winch and cleat it right below. You should be able to raise that jib without any problems and cleat it - make sure you turn into the wind when you do it.

Ditto on the reef/tack connection. Id Also look into a boom downhaul for luff tension as already mentioned. I can't tell exactly from the picture, but it looks as though your boom is up a little bit.

Lastly - when at the dock, check and make sure your mast is straight....It may be an optical illusion or my own craziness, but it looks like your a touch angled to starboard.

dw

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 20:44:34

While it is certainly true that it makes no difference to the sail whether the main halyard is run down the port side or the starboard side of the mast, the custom certainly is to have the main halyard handled and belayed on the starboard side. I do believe that of perhaps a hundred sailboats I have sailed on or have observed perhaps one may have had the customary relationship reversed. The old english rhyme was "There is no red port left, it has all gone down my throat" meaning that the throat halyards of the mainsail led down the left side of the mast and the peak halyards opposite on the right, also covering the matter of the runing lights--red to port. One of the good things about customs like this is that a new hand can go aboard a boat and be pretty sure how things are going to be arranged, although one should never, ever, take anything for granted (different ships, different splices, etc) Fair winds, ron srsk Orion SW FL

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2005 : 22:36:36

The wire portions of the main and jib halyards are different lengths, and they don't work correctly if you switch them. Also, the winch is mounted on the port side of the mast to provide mechanical advantage to assist in tensioning the jib halyard. A winch isn't needed for the main halyard. But I think I agree with Duane that if you change to all rope halyards and lead the halyards to the cockpit without using the winches, it doesn't matter which one you use for which sail, because you can route them any way you wish.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2005 : 08:27:33

I didn't know about the wire being different lengths - it has been a while since I had the wire halyards to even remember. Our main is on Port because prior to running everything back, the winch was required to tighten the main. (this was before we found out about the beuty of a main downhaul and before we installed a cunningham).

Now that you mention it, every boat I've been on has the main on Starboard.....

We splashed last Saturday, but aren’t stepping the mast until tomorrow. We will need to re-run the halyards end for end, so I might as well swap them out side to side. The beauty of the entire situation is that I put the sticker labels for the clutch cleats in a spot where “I wouldn’t forget or lose them” three years ago. I just found them yesterday, so I don’t even have to worry about things being mislabeled.

You learn something every day - that is why I love sailing.

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