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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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sealant selection

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jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/16/2002 : 09:21:24

When re-sealing the stanchions, bow rail posts or anything else attached to the deck, the correct product to use is something like 3M 101 (or a polysulphide based sealant) and NOT 3M 5200 which is an adhesive.

Correct ?

Any other sealant product suggestions would be much appreciated.

Marine Goop ?

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 09:33:00

You're on the correct "tack" here. You should tighten the stanchion screws only about 90% initially - let the sealant cure to form a gasket then tighten again.
I assume you are aware of the major pitfalls of silicone <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>.

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ(Ode to Joy)

Edited by - OJ on 04/16/2002 09:33:53

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 10:00:35

Jm,

Yes, I would recommend that you use a polysulfide sealant(3M 101, LifeCalk) to mount deck hardware, because you never know if you will have to remove that hardware sometime in the future. This topic was just discussed a day or two ago in a topic called "Why Cetol?"(towards the bottom of the page). Here is the link.http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=902 Yesterday, I finished rebedding all of my exterior teak and today or tomorrow I will be rebedding 1 or 2 stanchions using the polysulfide sealant, LifeCalk.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 12:01:28

thanks for the link.. I gave up on the Cetol thread at just the wrong moment.. (I'm not a big fan of Cetol given its chemical composition and resultant fumes)

As for the bedding compound - 3M 101 it will be..

Edited by - on

Ken Cave
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 23:47:58

The stancions themselves need to "bleed" out the water that collects in them-do not just seal the bottom-as it will trap all the dirt and water in the stancion itself.

As far as the screws that are holding the stancion mounts, I have used 5200 with wonderful results if you use this product sparingly. Take the screw out of the hole, and very carefully, put a little of the 5200 into the hole, and screw the screw back in and tighten it up. If it continues to leak (and I have had this happen once) remove the screw and add just a little 5200 in the hole, and do the same thing all over again! This stuff is good for below and above the water line-and it really works in setting screws.

Ken Cave

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 00:03:49

Ken,

That's an interesting method for sealing stanchion bolts. What happens if the water stops entering the cabin yet is still getting into the cored deck. You may not find out until it's too late.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 08:26:57

I'm glad this thread popped up because I have some questions in this vein. According to my new spinlock rope clutches, I cannot use a polysulfide caulk on them. would you recommend 101 on everything else? What product would you recommend for the clutches? Plain ole silicone?

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 11:33:01

Duane,

They probably want you to use an actual bedding compound to mount the clutches like Interlux 214 http://us.yachtpaint.com/usa/ or Dolfinite Bedding Compound http://www.boatus-store.com/browse/item.asp?CFSR=1& IID=19023 which go on like a putty instead of a caulk. A few weeks ago, I spoke with a rather salty, New England area Interlux rep who was visiting my local BoatUS store and he recommended the Interlux 214(of course) and Dolfinite putty type sealants on deck items that might take a load(clutches, cleats, winches,...etc) He didn't give me a reason as to why the putties would be better. Hope this helps.

FYI-West Marine sells the Dolfinite by the pint($17.99) or Quart($22.99)http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ExecMacro/site_search.d2w/report?sku_search=& s_sku_search=& select_search_category=all& keyword=bedding compound

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 04/17/2002 11:42:33

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 15:13:06

Duane,
I used BoatLife LifeSeal (it's a polyurethane/silicone combination that's O.K. for plastic) on my clutches and it's working great. I removed one double to replace it with a triple; it came off with no damage to anything, but it did have terrific adhesion.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 16:25:25

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Duane,
I used BoatLife LifeSeal (it's a polyurethane/silicone combination that's O.K. for plastic) on my clutches and it's working great. I removed one double to replace it with a triple; it came off with no damage to anything, but it did have terrific adhesion.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I presume that is something totally different than Life Caulk? Because life Caulk is specifically mentioned as a no no on the label

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 17:55:10

Exactly! I won't use the BoatLife LifeCaulk. Practical Sailor did a test recently of the various adhesives and the LifeSeal had pretty high marks for adhesion on all the different materials (metal, wood, fiberglass, etc.) but could be removed (unlike straight polyurethane) and could be used on plastics. I use it for all deck hardware. The LifeCaulk didn't have as good adhesion, especially on metal, and can't be used on plastic.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 18:35:05

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sealants for deck hardware are used to keep moisture out and not to "adhere" the hardware to the deck. Although I've never used a bedding compound, I've been told they are almost like window glazing putty in that they do not provide any kind of adhesion. LifeCaulk is supposed to form a longlasting, rubbery gasket that can be easily removed when necessary. The nuts and bolts provide the mechanical adhesion to the deck. What I look for in a sealant is it's weatherproofing properties and not it's adhesion properties.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Ken Cave
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2002 : 00:39:53

Don: The stancions on a C 25 are hollow and have no bottom-hence you really got to be careful not to seal them up. Water and dirt does get into these units and can be a real mess later on. As far as the screws through the hull, I would not worry about it as the screws are placed in the strongest part of the boat. If they do leak, it will come through to the cabin where you can identify the bolt that is doing the dirty deed.

Hope this helps

Ken Cave

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2002 : 01:03:00

Ken,

I do have a leaky stanchion bolt or two, and I'm going to try your "remove a bolt and seal" method and see what happens. Thanks.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2002 : 17:53:36

Don,
That may be true, but if it doesn't have some adhesion it's not going to make a very good seal. If it were just "gasket" material, any flexing with the sometimes high forces applied could allow water in.

BoatLife LifeSeal statement:
A unique combination of marine silicone and polyurethane formulated especially for fiberglass. LifeSeal offers a fast-curing, low odor, high adhesion, non-sagging, non-corrosive, non-yellowing formula. It provides a durable permanent watertight seal for joints subject to structural movement. May be used above and below the waterline. Use for sealing decks to hulls, thru-hull fittings, vinyl ports, sealing/glazing windshields and bedding marine hardware. Will adhere to metal glass, wood, Lexan, ABS and certain other materials. Can be removed without damaging gel-coat. Not recommended for ferro cement hulls impregnated wood or oil-soaked materials. Cures in presence of water. Acid free

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2002 : 21:38:00

John,

I know Boatlife claims that LifeSeal, a polyurethane/silicone sealant, "Can be removed without damaging gelcoat", but that statement doesn't say it will be easy to remove from the gelcoat. I removed my exterior teak for refinishing and although the sealant that the PO used didn't damage the gelcoat, it was a mother to get off. So the lesson I learned was, if you think you may someday remove a piece of teak or hardware, make it easy on yourself and use a sealant that will keep you from cursing.

FYI: The following advice is from West Marine:

Polysulfides-Perhaps the most versatile sealants available. Two-part polysulfides have long been popular as caulking material for teak decks. One-part polysulfides are easier to use and just as durable, but slower to cure. Both bond well to most surfaces. Oily woods (such as teak) should be primed before using polysulfides. Not for use on plastic, as they will melt it.

Polyurethanes-Recommended for permanent bonding because of its enormous adhesive strength. Good for hull/deck joints and bonding thru-hull fittings. Incompatible with ABS and Lexan.

Silicone-Very elastic and highly chemical resistant. Excellent insulation barrier between dissimilar metals. Not as strong in adhesive strength as polysulfide or polyurethane. Compatible with plastics.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 04/19/2002 01:01:03

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2002 : 16:21:13

Well, that's the problem, silicone isn't good for much and is difficult to get completely removed (it permeates the gel coat too well), but straight polysulfides and polyurethanes aren't compatible with plastic. So what do you do? If it's easily removed, it probably easily allows water in.

Personally, I wouldn't trust a salesman's advice; his motive is to sell his product, period.

And I would never use anything that resembles window glazing putty; that stuff isn't even good for window glazing, or it would still be used for windows (look at a modern window - where's the putty?)

I'll use LifeSeal and keep my deck core dry.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2002 : 08:39:39

I used Ken's approach to stop some leaks from some genoa track bolts, but used silicone seal to do it. I just removed the bolt, shot the sealer down through the track, and replace the bolt--with a helper below holding a wrench on the nut--he got a little gooey! I'm about to rebed a stanchion and will have to assess the drainage issue, which suggests not rebedding the entire base. If I only do the bolt holes, I'll probably use silicone again--I feel like it would do a better job of permeating the core around the hole, and won't create problems for removing the bolts years later. For surface seals on deck, I think LifeSeal is the best, but you have to seal the bolt at its head, as well as the base of the hardware.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - on

Rick Heaverly 86 C25 5382
Navigator

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Belize
206 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 07:57:20

I also have a leak from the genoa track. My nuts are between the liner and the outer hull. Looks like I have to take a dremmel tool to the fiberglass to get at them. Any one else had this problem?

(I'm setting you guys up for some creative responses)

Rick Heaverly

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 11:51:53

Your nuts are where?? <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

OK.... I got to the nuts by removing the teak trim strip along the edge of the liner below the side deck. Some were slightly imbedded in a fiber/foam material that I had to cut away from them, but most could be reached fairly easily. Earlier or later vintages may be different.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - bristle on 04/22/2002 11:53:31

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