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Can a Catalina 25 Capsize????

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__Leo__
1st Mate

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USA
25 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/04/2005 : 00:58:34

I was wondering if this would be possible or not... Leo

"Susatti" 1979 Catalina 25, Pomona, NY

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2005 : 08:49:42

Of course. Any boat can capsize under the right -- or wrong -- conditions. Obviously some boats are harder to capsize than others.

Brooke

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ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2005 : 10:15:45

I think a knockdown usually happens with a combination of situations.
Example, a severe gust before you have a chance to reef can make you heel nearly 45 degrees. If that were all, then you'd probably recover okay.
Combine that gust with the right (wrong) circumstances at the same time, like a big wave hitting you at the most inopportune time and it's time to go swimming....Thank goodness it hasn't happened to me.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/04/2005 : 10:59:44

I've read the digest of a research paper that said most sailboats will capsize if they take a breaking wave with a height of approx 1/3 waterline length on their beam. For a C25... a 7' (or so) breaking wave will probably do the trick.

Stay out of the breaking stuff and I think you'd have a very difficult time inverting a C25.
Come to think of it, I believe that I've ever seen a report of A C25 going fully inverted. Not really something to worry about unless you end up in rather extreme conditions.

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atgep
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Response Posted - 07/04/2005 : 11:56:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 
Come to think of it, I believe that I've ever seen a report of A C25 going fully inverted. Not really something to worry about unless you end up in rather extreme conditions.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unless you sail on Lake Cheney! Here come the Nationals.

Tom.

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Jeff Howe
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 10:45:42

Reading the book by John Vigor called "The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat" (John is a reknown Rigger in the Northwest, originally from South Africa) and there's a part in there about capsizing. The discussion is about a University study from England about the size of wave, size and weight of boat. I had an Irwin Citation 30 that would capsize if hit "correctly" by a 16.5 ft. wave....Not that big and it would roll a 30', 10,000 lb boat. The book has tremendous information on securing a sailboat for offshore work...and maybe even be able to handle Lake Cheney...ha ha...
Sail all the time, even in your dreams...

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__Leo__
1st Mate

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USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 11:14:42

So basically are we saying that a Catalina would NOT capsize if there arent any serious waves? I was watching some sailing class video (I think it was "Sailing with Confidence).. and it said that the weight of the keel would keep the boat from capsizing... thats what made me start thinking if this would be true or not for a C25.... Leo

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 11:38:14

The C25 has a self righting capability to come back from a roll well over 90 degrees (spreaders in the water).

I've had mine to 45 degrees many times. Thats where I put the reef in. In normal conditions, normal loading, lacking large breaking waves it would be almost impossible to capsize the C25.

What would be a danger is broaching on a large following sea, rolling to 60 degrees or more, and flooding the cockpit. If the cockpit lockers are latched shut, and the bottom companion way door board is bolted on, the danger is managed.

Another danger would be if something BROKE in those extreme conditions (rigging, rudder).

Another danger would be if you are not prepared to reef quickly in extreme conditions both main and jib!

As John Vigor says in that previously quoted book over and over again "Think Inverted".

The C25 has a capsize ratio under 2, which is rated safe for offshore sailing.

The C25 when sailed by an experienced crew, is rated medium for offshore safety when rated by Vigors system in the book.

Vigor's entire appendix is about modifying a C27 for a solo around the world voyage.

Don't forget you've got almost 2000 pounds of iron (or lead) hanging down there under the boat (ie the keel). Maximum righting moment comes at 90 degrees of heel.

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__Leo__
1st Mate

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USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 12:12:06

Jim,

45 degrees is the angle I almost reached yesterday. It kind of freaked me out thinking we would capsize... I let go of the jib and/or turned the boat around to sooth everything... was a real experience... but it really seems like I was pushing it to the limit a bit... capsizing a blue jay is nothing... but a 25 foot boat is different... so it makes me think twice... especially when you have people on board... I would be able to sit down and do some physical calculations if I knew the weight of parts on the boat etc... It really seems like the keel would pull it down due to its weight... how much do they weigh anyways??? Leo

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 14:59:51

The swing keel is 1500#; the fin is 1900. The swinger makes up for part of the difference by being deeper in the water--a longer lever arm. The wing is 1750#, making up for some of the difference by putting a substantial amount of the mass as deep as possible, down in the wing.

As Jim points out, the righting force of the keel is at the maximum when the boat is heeled to 90 degrees... Correspondingly, the heeling force of the wind on the sails drops as the boat heels, going to nothing as the boat gets to 90 degrees (except in a downdraft or "microburst"). So, even in a strong wind, the boat will reach an equilibrium point before it gets to 90 degrees--it takes a big wave to push it beyond that point.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 16:12:09

OK! 45 degrees is just where its getting fun! Dump the main!

I'll bet it never really rounded up even at 45 degrees (but it starts roaring like a waterfall). Right? Lots of weather helm, but kept steering? Thats a good boat.

Alone or with experienced sailors I try to keep it at about 30 degrees. In a gust if you are working to windward anyways go ahead, let it round up a bit, that depowers the sails and gets you upwind. Takes guts, though.

WIth family and non-racers no more than 15 degrees.

First

dump main

let traveller down, pull main back see if boat comes up

tighten outhaul, halyard get main flatter. Move jib blocks back.

put in flattening reef. Usually this will be enough. Still over too far?

go to a 110% jib

put in 1st reef.

Edited by - on

TRogers
1st Mate

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USA
90 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 19:54:45

>OK! 45 degrees is just where its getting fun! Dump the main!

Jim

Clearly degree of heal is an acquired taste! Above 20 starts to make me uncomfortable.

One of the things that was beaten into my head by my instructor (Bill Holcomb) when I learned to sail was that beyond a certain point of heal there is a diminishing return in your speed. Cuz the more you heal, the more rudder (read as drag) you need to stay on course. I was amazed at how much pressure was required on the tiller to maintain course when you got beyond 20. Now exactly where the trade off point is, I don't know, but I suspect 45 is most definitely (maybe even 30?) beyond that point?

Then again if its the adrenelin rush one is after, the trade off point probably starts at 30 (OK 20 for a wimp like me). LOL.

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__Leo__
1st Mate

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USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 21:08:48

The 45 degree doesnt sound very efficient to me (although I did it)... when I reached the 30 degree angle I was going about 7 knots... and when I dropped it to approximetly 45 degrees the speed dropped dramatically to 5 knots... but I was still going...

Now I do remember some physics... from engineering classes and correct me if I am wrong.. sin30=.70 and sin45=.50 wasnt it??? or something like that??? so the forces on the sails seem to give more power coefficient of .70 at 30 degree angle... if I drop it to 45 it would have a lower coefficient which would bring the force to be mutliplied by .50 instead of .70... My guess is that the 30 is the most efficient of all... (if there are any that are into physics please correct me if I am wrong)....

I know the adrenaline shoots up when you go beyond 30....and my brother actually starts yelling at me as to take it easy because this is our 6th time out so far... but I like pushing it sometimes... (he is the sensible one I suppose)...

Yesterday I also realized some really dangerous situations when some bigger boats pass by going very fast.... you get the waves coming towards you (although they werent 7'... it was still a WAVE)... and in addition to that while you are pushing your sail boat at a 30 degree angle AND going through those waves you get a lot of water on board... splashing all around... thats when you start to come to your senses and slow it down a bit by letting the jib go a bit without changing your course... AND thats when you start thinking of capsizing too.... it seemed VERY dangerous EVEN to me... so I was really forced to slow it down...

I wonder if anyone reached 10 knots or so on a Catalina... 7 is my max so far... Leo

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 22:19:19

"slow it down a bit by letting the jib go a bit without changing your course"
Leo - 'tis much better to ease the mainsheet...and "feather" up to weather - this will bring you back on your feet much quicker.

Derek

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__Leo__
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 22:23:57

But Derek, That seems very hard to do when everything happens so quickly... isnt it easier to do it with the jib??? Leo

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2005 : 22:50:57

The quickest thing you can do is head up, which takes the pressure off both sails. You can quickly get both sails to spill some air--especially the upper part of the main, which will be twisted away from the wind somewhat. The main has more area higher up, so easing it or reefing it can have more effect than doing either with the jib.

Be careful messing with the jib sheet and winch in a blow--the forces are pretty strong and can mangle a finger--and it's easier to lose control. The multiple-part mainsheet is much less threatening.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/05/2005 22:53:11

__Leo__
1st Mate

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USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2005 : 07:57:50

OK, Pardon my NOT knowing... but when we say "feather up to weather" does that mean we let the main halyard loose or does it mean to head up in the wind...

.. Leo

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Rich G
Navigator

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226 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2005 : 10:22:33

"I wonder if anyone reached 10 knots or so on a Catalina... 7 is my max so far..."
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

On my recent trip down to NYC from Buzzard'a Bay, my GPS claimed we hit a top speed of 895 KTS. Now I love my little handheld, and I think it's great that it has made it possible for a yahoo like myself to navigte on the water, but I seriously doubt we were ever traveling faster than about 7.3 KTS, and even that was with the current. Of course, that top speed brought our moving average up above 14 KTS. Hard to trust that trip computer . . .

Edited by - Rich G on 07/06/2005 10:23:43

Jonathan Cuff
Navigator

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Cayman Island
173 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2005 : 11:45:18

Hi guys

My maximum speed as recorded by my Garmin GPSMAP168 Sounder was 9.5 knots. We were running downwind with the main out, and both the 150 Genoa and crusing shute poled out in opposite directions to each other. We were probably averaging in the high 7's. We probably had about 15 knots of wind.

After we made our turn on the marker the lower chainplate gave way though!

Oops.

Cheers Jonathan

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2005 : 12:28:59

The C25 is fastest at about 30 degrees of heel. Maybe 25. When it gets to 45 and stays there I act quickly to bring it back down. Feathering up to weather refers to heading upwind in the gusts. Leave the main and traveller alone. This will move you to weather real well. If you are uncomfortable, try all the things I listed in order: backstay tight, outhaul tight, main halyard tight, traveller down, flattening reef, smaller headsail, first reef, smaller headsail, 2nd reef, if thats too much HEAD BACK IN UNDER POWER with all canvas down. I've certainly seen all that and more this spring alone!

I have the balanced rudder and the mast raked WAY back. Weather helm is never a real problem, its hard to get it to really round up (unless I have the 155 jib on in too much wind). With the mast rake I never feel lee helm under any circumstances.

When you are over to 30 degrees and there are big waves, ye ha, this is a sport! You gotta learn to steer through the swells and chop and learn how to keep your speed up.

PS.

Speeds through the water are normally 5.5 to 6.5 knots. Speeds in the 7s are a possibility with just the right conditions (not counting currents). I've seen moments up to about 8.5 knots through the water beam or broad reaching with good winds and surfing big quartering seas. This is really fun to do. Surfing lets you exceed the hull - speed wave limitations.

Edited by - JimB517 on 07/06/2005 12:32:45

__Leo__
1st Mate

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USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2005 : 15:08:41

Thanks Jim,

Question: If you were heading in a direction that you dont want to change... (in my case running 45 degrees into a wave) whats the first thing you would do to slow yourself down... OR do you slow yourself down???? Leo

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2005 : 15:39:28

If sailing upwind, dump the main (ie let the mainsheet out 3 feet or so). If downwind pull the main in amidships.

I have mid boom main sheeting so the main, traveller, jib sheets, are all right at hand at all times. With all other lines led aft reefing, adjusting outhaul, vang, or halyard tension is just 1 foot away.

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jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2005 : 18:22:57

"I wonder if anyone reached 10 knots or so on a Catalina... 7 is my max so far... Leo"

I've hit
11.9 mph = 10.3408173 knots via gps... i stayed over 8-9mph for a good while actually...
it was in 25-30 knots wind reciently... it wasn't one of my smarter moves.... managed to put the bow under atleast twice
http://westmouthbay.com/pictures/album16

The boat had real bad lee-helm... I had both the main and genoa reefed... i was surprised by the lee-helm

Edited by - jlguthri on 07/06/2005 18:29:29

__Leo__
1st Mate

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USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2005 : 18:46:44

Jim, that sounds great.. and will definitely try it next time I'm out...

I also realized... and do get scared a lot from using the main especially when you sail downwind... a slight change in wind slams the boom right across the boat... and I was about to lose my glasses, my head and my ear if I didnt pay attention to it... ALMOST GOT ME... I guess thats why they call it a boom in the first place... this picture was taken 5 seconds before the boom made its tangent slam across...

http://www.rizadesign.com/boat/low/IMGP0216.jpg

I cant believe how people sail over 5 knots (forget about 10-15's)... needs some serious courage to do so... once I hit 6 I start to get nervous... ALTHOUGH its a great pleasure to go that fast and with the bow slicing through the waves (from other boats) it was a great experience that felt like jumping off a plane... Leo

Edited by - __Leo__ on 07/06/2005 18:59:21

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2005 : 20:15:51

I have measured over 12 knots on the GPS (6.7 knots of current in the Cape Cod Canal and about 6 knots under power--I was in a hurry). The GPS is a relatively meaningless measurement of speed, however, since it fails to acount for current or drift.

On the original question, I do not believe it is possible to capsize a fin keel C25 under wind alone, even if overpowered. Most knockdowns come as the result of wave action or broaching. It doesn't make sense to be out in a C25 in conditions that might provoke a knockdown (breaking seven-plus foot seas would probably do it).

On the other hand, most things that are fun don't really make sense to anyone who is not having the fun.

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jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2005 : 22:12:50

agreed, i was riding a falling tide (although i wouldn't call it boiling)... but still a wilder ride than i bargined for...

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