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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

have wheel have problems

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kculv
Deckhand

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1 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/19/2005 : 10:11:39

i have just purchased a cat25,1981 model.previous owner has insatlled a edson wheel system. the system is stiff and from stop to stop wheel is not centered. the steering seems to stiff and seems to have some slack in the wheel, has anyone ever had this problem or is this the only c/25 with a wheel. i have asked around and the only answer i get is (you have a wheel on a c/25?) please offer any info you have on this problem.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2005 : 11:17:10

This boarders on discussing religion.
There are very few wheels on C-25s, many more on C-250s where there is enough beam aft to handle them. The more experienced the sailor you ask, the more incredulous he will be that you have one. Do yourself a favor, buy a tiller and sell the thing on eBay. Wheels on anything under 30 ft are odd and usually counter productive. At the risk of mussing hair... I think of them like Eddie Bauer packages on trucks; you don't get any more truck, you just stand a better chance of your wife letting you buy the truck.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1774 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2005 : 12:45:50

Hi there,

Yes, wheel steering on a C-25 is rare. The Edson wheel is an after-market add-on, and an expensive one, too. I have a wheel on my boat, but I don't think I would ever have added it myself. I must admit though, I like it, and I plan to keep it ... but ... mine needs to be fixed before I can sail again

I suspect that your system is like mine ... it is a single push/pull cable. The slack in the wheel is "normal" ... I don't know exactly how much play you should expect, but as a consequence of attaching the "bicycle" link chain inside the pedestal to the push/pull cable, there is some slack in the system.

I'm not sure about your "centering" problem. If you mean that a "spoke" on your Edson wheel doesn't point to 12 o'clock when the rudder is centered, that's no big deal ... I marked dead center on the wheel by putting a knot of binding string at the 12 o'clock position on the wheel ... that lets me know I'm steering straight with a glance at the wheel.

As for the binding in your cable ... it might be worth a look at the Edson web site to see if they recommend any particular type of lubricant for the cable ... 'maybe some graphite, marine grease of some type, or something else ... I just don't know.

Unless you've been "lurking" on this site, you are too new to know Arlyn Stewart ... he owns a C-250, and he is one of the most knowledgeable contributors to this site. Arlyn has designed an open cable system to replace the old push/pull Edson cable ... it is designed for a C-250, but I've gotten one of Arlyn's kits, and I intend to install it on my C-25. Here is a photo of what it looks like installed in a C-250:

As I mentioned previously, I have Arln's kit, but I haven't had time to try to install it yet. Arlyn gave me a couple ideas for mounting the hardware ... when I finally get around to doing the installation, I plan to document it with photos so other C-25 owners can benefit from my boo boos

Don't let your steering woes sour you on the C-25 ... it is a GREAT boat ... you're going to love it!

Welcome to the group!

BTW, what is your name, and where are you located?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2005 : 06:40:33

Buzz has about covered it but I'll add a little. The Edson small boat steering system started out using a single robust cable system. That design has been discontinued because the lubrication layer would ultimately fail. Also, if the pvc jacket were compromised near any sharp bend, the longitudal rather than spiral wrapped outer cable wires simply allowed the inner cable to pooch out and fail.

It was replaced by a pull/pull two cable system. The two cable system uses inner cables not integral to the outer jacket so that they can be removed for greasing or special grease fittings can be installed in the jackets.

Buzz correctly points out that the idler chain and pick off technique of the single cable system was suceptable to considerable play. The design was also limited to a poor steering ratio. Between the drag of the cable, the poor steering ratio and if combined with an unbalanced rudder, the system was very poor in doing what a wheel ought to do, providing a low effort helm.

I dealt with the problem by doing away with flexible jacketed cables all together and went the route of larger boats which use open wire cables. The result is a system with no play, minimum system drag and the ability to alter the steering ratio to one that is much more suitable. The original system has a steering ratio with 1/2 turn of the wheel from center to lock. I felt that needed doubled and the results verify that a much better helm is achieved by two full turns of the wheel compared to one, with the helm easy and more precise.

Unfortunately, the Edson two cable upgrade cannot alter the steering ratio from the original design, nor can it do away with all the play. By design, with a lack of arc compensation, the two cable system must be adjusted so that there is play at center so that the cables don't become too tight and cause wear near rudder lock.

An open wire system avoids those design shortcomings by using some form of arc compensation so that the cable tension remains the same during the full swing of the rudder. Such systems allow longer leverage arms to obtain a desired steering ratio and leverage requirment for an easy helm, the primary reason for having a wheel to start with.

While most big boats use a quadrant to do the arc compensation, I chose for several reasons to do it with a slotted steering arm extension. This method does something that quadrants don't... it provides a non linear helm, which means the steering ratio increases farther from rudder center with a 50% gain over the Edson system at center and a 150% gain near rudder lock where torque requirements of the rudder are greater. The slotted arm also leaves the arm unloaded so that the rudder can be easily removed without any cable adjustments. The results, as noted by those who convert, are beyond expectations.

The conversion design is freely offered and because it requires some machine work, is also offered as a kit.

For more info, see the link below. That page will also provide a link to a recent installation that was very well documented that shows a very good picture of the Edson upgraded system prior to it being removed for the conversion installation.

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/steeringkit.html"]Open wire steering conversion[/url]

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 07/20/2005 06:59:33

tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2005 : 16:14:59

Let me chime in as well. When we purchased our boat its steering system worked just like yours. It took so much force to move the wheel that I was the only one who could do it. I worked out a slight modification for my non catalina and Arlyn fabricated it for me. It has worked great. The only problem I have had is one of the bolts holding the steering arm worked loose just as we were entering a slip with a wicked cross current. But that was an issue with my particular and peculiar installation and not the system. It has almost no play in the steering, it is easy use and installation was pretty easy too.

Edited by - tmhansen on 07/20/2005 16:18:21

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