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Voyager
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Initially Posted - 04/28/2022 : 08:30:49

As we all see in the news, for homes, cars, lawn equipment, tools new battery technologies are here. The old standard wet lead acid batteries are being superseded with newer technologies: Nickel Cadmium was a start, then NiMH, the Lithium Ion and Lithium Iron Phosphate. With lead acid glass matte (AGM) and gel types we have some incremental improvements. Other cell types are in development too that are less well-known.
I got a flyer today from WM about their new LiFePO battery that provides 80 Ah but costs roughly 8X that of a good quality lead acid group 27 deep discharge battery. Now, for all practical purposes you can only use 45 Ah out of the lead acid battery, while you can use almost all of the 80 Ah from lithium so you get more. But not 8X more.
Is there a good reason to switch from the old standby until prices come down?
I can also assume that one could purchase an LiFePO battery for another purpose (tool, lawn equipment) and adapt it to boat use, but since it�s a science project you may have a problem with safety issues, charging issues, or possibly insurance coverage if something were to go wrong.
Am I missing something?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2022 : 10:30:08

Regarding the multiple uses, voltage.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Volksaholic
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Response Posted - 05/05/2022 : 11:46:37

I haven't bit the bullet on a LiFePo to replace FLA yet, but you're asking why someone should bite the bullet now. The reasons I would (or will) bite are:
1) LiFePo lighter than FLA/AGM/Gel
2) efficiency... I can't recall the numbers but I think FLA ends up storing about 60%-70% of the energy used to charge it while LiFePo is in the high 90%s
3) longevity; FLA/AGM/GEL batteries really have a fairly short life and fewer charge cycles, especially with a deep discharge. LiFePo and LiIon are significantly better with proper battery/charge management
4) Better energy delivery at reduced charge; LiFePo can deliver full voltage/amperage at a pretty reduced charge level, Lead Acid drops off rapidly
5) low self discharge; LiFePo will hold a charge much longer when sitting idle than FLA/AGM/GEL
6) doesn't generate explosive hydrogen gas, although heaven help you if your LiIon battery overheats or shorts and starts burning! :) I think LiFePo is safer than LiIon in that regard, with some loss of efficiency in the trade-off.

Granted, those reasons are off the top of my head, and I don't trust the top of my head for storage as much as used to. I think it's kind of the Lead Acid equivalent for data storage. If any of those reasons spark an interest in dropping 8x as much for a battery I recommend you fact check me. That said... I think my claims are probably 80%++ correct. (I'm told I should speak with more "confidence and authority", but I'd rather hedge that spew inaccurate information as if it were verifiable fact. In other words... I'd rather be fact-checked than lead someone to make a decision based on my faulty information.)

Paul
1981 Catalina 25 TR/FK
Soon to be named either Fiddler's Dream or Fool's Errand depending on what it takes to get her into shape

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 05/05/2022 : 13:17:04

If they cost 8X the cost of lead acid batteries, the benefits of the technology might be worth 2X. By that reasoning, they'd have to last 6X as long as lead acid to be justified.

The 2 lead acid batteries on my C&C 35 usually lasted 4 years. My fridge was powered through them 24/7 through each summer, and used judiciously, they provided enough power for 2-4 consecutive days away from shore power. I never ran out of electricity when unplugged.

At that rate, the LifePO batteries would have to last 24 years to justify the cost. Few of us will keep a boat that long.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Volksaholic
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Response Posted - 05/05/2022 : 17:38:52

It sounds like you had the perfect use-case for FLA: The fridge, cabin, and running lights probably were a relatively low draw providing a slow discharge. 4 year lifespan seems about right... in my experience a properly cared for FLA lasts between about 3 and 6 or 7 years. I don't think the technology, or maybe it's the manufacturer's QC, is that predictable for determining their lifespan.

Here's a now pretty old article that breaks down the pros and cons as this company sees it of the Lead Acid and LiFePo. It seems pretty unbiased and tracks pretty well with my off-the-cuff post earlier: https://www.arkcorporation.us/blogs/news/54925381-deep-cycle-lifepo4-vs-lead-acid-pros-and-cons

One thing I'm not sure I agree with in the article is that they say LiFePo is more environmentally friendly than lead acid. I'd have to research that one. Granted, lead acid batteries have both lead and acid (duh) which are not good for the soil or watershed if they're left to disintegrate, but I read some time ago that lead acid batteries are one of the most reused and recycled consumer products out there. The makeup is pretty simple... lead, acid, plastic, water to dilute the acid somewhat. I doubt there's much environmental footprint in making them and if they're recycled properly then there's not much need for mineral extraction. I'm not sure about LiFePo. Iron and Phosphate are plentiful, but I think Lithium is harder to come by and at a premium due to demand. I'm not sure how recyclable they are. I'd bet if you bought a LiFePo battery you're getting lithium that's recently been harvested but with lead acid everything except maybe the plastic shell has probably been around the block a bunch of times.

Other than that, I think it depends on what you need. LiFePo can handle temperature extremes better, and a Lead Acid battery will be ruined if it freezes so it needs to be kept charged in cold weather. I think LiFePo can handle the cold better and deliver more power when it's cold, but you can damage it by charging it when it's too cold might need a battery heater for charging. My solar charge controller can monitor battery temperature and adjust the charge rate if the battery is too cold or too hot (it's currently maintaining my lead acid deep cycle battery).

The article makes good points about some of the pros and cons. I think their prices are dated, or they shop more expensive batteries than I do, but I think the 8x is about right from what I've seen. My boat battery was about $100 at Costco. Comparable LiFePo seem to be about $850 last I checked. My battery only had a 3 year warranty but if I'm careful with it (no freezing, deep discharges, etc) I figure it's as likely to last 4 or 5 years as any lead acid battery. But I'll probably buy a LiFePo to use for running my computers and various things either in my camper van or the boat. Given the fact that LiFePo is expensive but weighs about 1/3 as much as Lead Acid I'll probably buy one and swap it back and forth... at least for now. If I were serious about racing and had a light boat, I'd certainly want a light battery that could handle my electronics load reliably without giving me a weight disadvantage. If I race the C25 I don't think it matters... the boat is heavy enough that a 70lb battery isn't going to make much difference.

You're right that it's an expensive upgrade so if lead acid is serving you well and you don't have the need for what the LiFePo can offer then your money is better spend elsewhere.

Paul
1981 Catalina 25 TR/FK
Soon to be named either Fiddler's Dream or Fool's Errand depending on what it takes to get her into shape

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2022 : 20:32:05

quote:
Originally posted by Volksaholic

...You're right that it's an expensive upgrade so if lead acid is serving you well and you don't have the need for what the LiFePo can offer then your money is better spend elsewhere.

If the concern is northern winters, either keep the FLA inside over winter with occasional feedings from on a cheap 3-stage charger (as I do), or spend a little more on AGM, which can be left out in the winter and has some of the other advantages for a much smaller premium. I've been replacing my boat's FLAs every 7th year at the first slight sign of weakness--could never quite justify an upgrade. But I stress them very little. (Knocking on teak!)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/06/2022 09:33:26

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2022 : 11:04:08

My concern with much of the "new" battery technologies is how susceptible to causing fire and/or not being able to extinguish if they were to catch on fire. My marine battery needs are relatively basic so adding potential risk would be my concern.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/09/2022 : 08:29:18

It is interesting the different ways to look at this. If we turned this 180 degrees around and instead found that new technology could lower battery cost to 1/8 the normal cost but may produce only half the amps, would have to have water added periodically, I think there would be quite a few interested!

I bought my boat in 2005. The two FLA batteries were not new but lasted a long time till they needed replacement. The batteries solar charged onboard with a 20 watt panel .
I suspect I had replaced both batteries with 2 WM FLAs......and then perhaps 4 years ago, replaced them with AGMs. So, we are talking ~17 years: 5+ years on PO�s initial FLA batteries, ~7yrs on another set of FLA batteries and so far ~4yrs on present AGMs.

The biggest benefit of spending more to get away from FLAs is to avoid having to periodically add water to the battery cells.....and if you are one that seasonally removes batteries ....not having to remove FLAs which requires some attention to avoid water spills. Having now used AGMs, I am so far, extremely pleased : Basically no maintenance and service life still to be determined but at least 4 years and going strong.

Reading this posting about this new technology but at 8x the battery cost, this is what goes through my mind:
1) If total amps was never a concern with my past batteries, then what real benefit would be derived from new tech batteries that have perhaps double the amps? (I presently have 2 batteries onboard, so perhaps I could remove one, saving space......but there is really no space savings considering not really going to utilize that space)
2) At 8x battery cost, you really are depending an awful lot on continued reliability of a new product.....when there may not be any real need to go this route at this time.
3) If right at this time there was a need to fully maximize battery amps and the new technology seems to address this but at 8x the cost........rather than put trust into the new technology fulfilling on it�s promise over entire service life, it would be beneficial to explore ways to minimize boat loads (amps) and other charging alternatives (adding another battery, adding or increasing solar panel watts.
4) Oftentimes I can get all worked up looking into data details and comparisons of one product versus another but fail to really consider if something is truly needed.
5) On this Forum, we have a lot of loyal supporters/boaters that racked up many years owning their boats but probably compared to the general sailing public, many probably own their sailboat ...perhaps 5 years. That first year, many have had to address issues - repair/replace a finicky motor, replace sails......replace batteries. Given other 1st year boat owner costs, recommend not investing in overly expensive replacements if more reasonable alternative will do the trick

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/09/2022 09:22:05

Voyager
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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2022 : 16:42:13

Larry, I think I�m on the same page with you. I see a bunch of folks getting all excited about portable solar power stations with built-in lithium batteries, an inverter for120VAC loads, USB ports for all your electronics, but then I look at the Ah ratings (10, 20, etc) and prices like $400, $500, $600 and I�m like � I�ll stick with my FLA + 12VDC and my 200W inverter.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2022 : 17:14:34

The thing about new technology is that, after awhile, the price almost always comes down. I just googled LifePo batteries and see many under $400. with 100 AH.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/09/2022 : 17:25:35

Bruce,
My FLA batteries were working fine but what actually made me switch to AGMs was not the result of just going to an upgrade but a little weird.......

I cannot recall exactly when this happened...must have been at least 4-5 years ago and was not a boat related decision. A hurricane was predicted to be heading in direction of where I live in Northern Virginia. Last minute, like the day before the hurricane hit, I got this brainstorm idea to buy a 12 volt battery and use as a backup to my sump pump. I figured if we lost electricity, I could rig up a dc powered pump/bilge pump to periodically drain the sump pump tank. Only problem was that by the time I thought of this brilliant idea, seems there was a run on FLAs. I probably checked Home Depot and some local auto stores. But then decided to check out WM. They had some AGMs left. All I needed was one, so I bought it and a bilge pump. Then at home I rigged up some tubing, etc.

Hurricane took a detour north of us! (No chance of losing electric power.) So, as you were stating in your original posting - Thinking of ideas on how to use the basically un-used AGM. I like reviewing the data/details before many decisions but all I will tell you is that I did significant research on potential of using the AGM for night lighting the landscaping in the front of the house with solar panels for recharging. But eventually, I canned that idea...for a number of reasons. So....with an un-used AGM sitting around...

About a half year later, decided to replace my 2 FLAs that were onboard, working fine for past 7 years, with 2 AGMS. Utilized the one I bought about 6 months earlier and bought another.

One thing to check out, whether replacing FLAs with AGMs or a much more expensive alternative....is to ensure all charging equipment onboard is compatible with replacement battery types. For example, my solar controller had settings for charging with FLAs, AGMs or Gel batteries. My Guest battery charger was an earlier vintage and did not indicate compatibilities - I called up Guest Support and they indicated my charger was not ideal but would probably work fine okay but if I were to use it continually probably best to replace it. Turns out my Guest charger broke down a year or two ago...so it�s replacement is compatible.

So, now that there are new high tech batteries out there.....I would be wondering about how compatible it would be to existing solar controllers, AC chargers, etc. so, 8x the cost could be just the start.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/10/2022 : 08:32:13

I gotta post this update:
First of all, When I respond to postings.....my recollections of what I have done and when, is not always accurate. I should be checking my info more frequently before I respond. Okay, so there is that.

This morning, I was checking my boat website for when I actually changed out my batteries - My website has a �List of Improvements� Section and while I have not added everything to the list, it is good source of info.

Turns out that the FLAs I had onboard were from the PO (2005) and were not replaced for 8 yrs !!! Not until 2012. Now this does not seem possible but when the FLAs were replaced in 2012 it was with AGMs. If this is really true, then my AGMs are now 10 years old!!! Wow! This can�t be true but that is what is indicated on my List Of Improvements. I am going to check whatever paperwork I have on hand to see if this is really true. The more I think of it, it may very well be true because in my previous post, I mentioned about initially buying an AGM to rig up at home as a Sump Pump battery backup. This was due to a hurricane that then passed north of us......and come to think of it.....I do not recall any near-miss hurricanes occurring in many, many years........so, it could have been in the 2011/12 timeframe, then saved AGM and bought another installing both of them in 2012.
I gotta check this out!

Update: I was checking past dates for hurricanes in my area and that also helped put things in perspective - The hurricane was Hurricane Sandy (Aug 2012). So, that was when I bought the AGM. Storm passed and I just never used it....then sometime later, probably 6 months or so, is when I bought the second AGM and replaced my onboard FLAs. I should be down to my boat in a day or two and I am going to see if I can read any dates off the AGMs, But right now, it looks like they were installed end of 2012/beginning of 2013. If that is true, then they are lasting an unbelievably long time!

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/10/2022 12:40:38

Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/21/2022 : 06:34:49

Larry, that�s GREAT news! 10 years old and still counting. I think it�s all about the number of discharge cycles, rather than time. Sure, they�ll eventually die, but if you limit the number of deep discharges, you can keep your batteries working well beyond their average lifetimes of 6-7 years.
Here�s what I mean. I rarely, allow my battery voltage to run down below 12.2VDC. I can recharge even away from my dock with a 30W solar panel (about 1.2A under full sun) or my outboard that charges at 12A.
On occasion, I�ll run my anchor light, radio, VHF, a CPAP and electric cooler overnight while on the hook and the battery will bottom out at 12.2VDC by morning.
If I�ve done that 10 or 15 times in the past five years, it�s a lot. These batteries can withstand several dozen deep discharges in their lifetimes.
If, however, you regularly deep-cycle your batteries, without full recharge (which takes 10s of hours at 5-10A), battery life will be about average - 6 years.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2022 : 06:47:20

But let�s look at the numbers on this.
If you can get an LiFePO 100AH battery for $400-500, that�s probably in line with two group 27 AGM batteries (100AH each).
If you reckon that you can only discharge the AGMs halfway to 50AH without damage, then you need 2 AGMs to equal the output of an LiFePO 100 AH battery. Assuming $200-250 per AGM, and it�s a wash. Same same.
Two group 27 FLA batteries is still a better deal, but they take more space and weigh a ton.
Maybe next time �

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3367 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2022 : 20:46:24

Bruce,
What you say regarding number of deep cycles must have a lot to do with my AGMs lasting a long time. I very rarely if ever go through deep discharges - Mostly only use the batteries for starting the outboard leaving/returning to dock and to run my Humminbird Fishfinder. I very rarely utilize my navigation lights, cabin lights or mini-boombox. Also, my 20 watt solar panel is maintaining my 2 batteries fully charged.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Volksaholic
1st Mate

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55 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2022 : 08:52:55

From what I know of lead acid and related batteries, you're correct that they can last a long time if you don't deep discharge them often, let them freeze, or cook them with a cheap battery charger. One thing about lead acid is they have a relatively high self-discharge rate, so back in the days when we had to run an engine or plug in a battery maintainer/charger to keep them topped off they could deep discharge just from sitting. With inexpensive solar panels and an appropriate charge controller we've got a low or no maintenance means of keeping them at the optimal charge almost all the time.

Paul
1981 Catalina 25 TR/FK
Soon to be named either Fiddler's Dream or Fool's Errand depending on what it takes to get her into shape

Voyager
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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2022 : 19:54:19

That�s precisely what I do with my FLA battery. I keep it on the solar panel and regulator all the time. It keeps the battery voltage in a narrow range most of the time. You�ve got to keep it watered consistently also. It�s been hanging in there for me so far.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 05/29/2022 19:55:44

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2022 : 18:42:32

Missing water is a sign of developing trouble like some internal arcing between distorted plates. If I have to "water" either of mine more than once every couple of years, it's time for both to go. (I believe in a matched pair.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2022 : 06:46:33

Battery water level is something to check 2X a year � just in case. It can tell you a lot about your FLA battery. In my experience, you rarely have to top it off.
In addition to the situation Dave described above, low electrolyte can also mean an errant charger � overcharging the batteries will boil off electrolyte.
A cheap, single phase charger is notorious for this. A larger solar panel without a regulator can cause it too. A poorly regulated three-phase charger can overcharge it in the float phase if the voltage is too high.
Thankfully I have an inexpensive LED charge indicator on my battery next to the panel so I always know the state of charge.
That�s why it never hurts to check.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1736 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2022 : 18:21:58

FWIW -- in 2007 I bought two new batteries from West Marine for my new to me C-25. Those batteries lasted 12 years. I replaced with same and the first set only lasted seven years, the current set I am replacing this season, so roughly five years. West's battery quality is clearly not the same. All I am saying is be diligent in maintenance. But still since 2007 all batteries combined have cost only @ $670.00 and that's before the triple points from each purchase which would bring it down to under @$600.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

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