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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

High Moisture In Foredeck

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T O P I C R E V I E W
bigelowp	Posted - 03/25/2019 : 14:03:56 When I first got Limerick I had a survey performed one good piece of news was that the decks had no moisture issues. About six years ago I again had the decks checked by a moisture meter with no problems identified. About four years ago I began to notice that the non-skid appeared to be wearing off on the foredeck. Each year it has become noticeably worse until two years ago, when an under color of brown (I have tan non-skid) became very noticeable in two areas. Also on those areas the non-skid was completely worn. This past fall I also noticed some pin holes in the brown areas. My plan had been to resurface the non-skid deck area with either KiwiGrip or Awlgrip. First however I had the deck again checked for moisture and have been told the moisture is "off the charts". The yard was so surprised, they had a different person do the readings a second time and chart the data. Long and short is they are telling me the deck core is soaked and are offering a couple of obvious but not-so pleasant choices. Has or does anyone have "wet" decks and what have you done about them if so?
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
GaryB	Posted - 05/21/2019 : 17:38:25 They are probably about as accurate as the two (2) - $100+ blood pressure machines I've purchased in the past! Not very close to what the doctor gets in his office (even taking it in the doctor's office right after he does it). The last time we compared the newest machine I had purchased to what he was getting he told me to reduce the number on my machine by 15 points. AND... I NEVER get the same reading even when taking it multiple times one after another (can vary by 10 or more points).
bigelowp	Posted - 05/20/2019 : 12:50:49 Scott -- your approach is a good one. At this point I am not distressed at all, but somewhat miffed about the misinformation on the topic. Surveyors and "pundits" all claim that if a boat has moisture it is spoiled goods that require herculean repair efforts if you own the boat, or should be avoided at all costs if you are shopping. Reality is, all boats have some level of moisture in structural parts and yet keep on going. Not sure if it is a holdover from when moisture in a wooden boat could easily become structural rot. Regardless, over the years I have walked away from boats because a survey revealed "excessive moisture" in decks. I may have missed out on some great boats! My interest in this topic is fueled by where the moisture meter is reading moisture (not near any deck mounted hardware) and how it appears to change. The true test is how solid are the decks, is there crazing is stress load locations, and if they have "give" and if so where and why. So to at least me, the concerns about moisture is way overplayed. If there is a real problem with a boat you will know, in the mean time just keep sailing!
islander	Posted - 05/20/2019 : 12:09:50 Pete, For all we know it's probably very common in boats that are 30+ yrs. Mine might be the same way. I just never had it tested. After seeing how this has distressed you I think I'll take the 'I don't want to know' approach.
bigelowp	Posted - 05/20/2019 : 10:52:51 I will -- and even more frequently. This has become a very interesting topic for me as it seems to be one of those areas where the fear of moisture may just be fog!
islander	Posted - 05/19/2019 : 16:21:11 Check it in July or August.
Voyager	Posted - 05/19/2019 : 10:01:43 That sounds like good news Peter. Even with our Seattle-like weather here in Connecticut this spring, it�ll probably continue to dry out. The shrink wrap could�ve been the main issue. Just wondering, do you have any low tech weather gauges aboard like a hygrometer? I have one aboard Passage on it usually reads between 60 and 85% depending on the weather. Usually in July -September during our traditionally drier weather that will drop by about 5-10% but it�s always higher than ambient conditions, so it�s pretty clear that the boat holds moisture. I used to think it was mostly standing water in the bilges, but it could be due to dampness in the core.
bigelowp	Posted - 05/19/2019 : 09:08:29 Brief update: Shrink wrap off and boat exposed to weather for a week or so and all moisture measurements were lower by between 3 and 7%. It would appear that either colder temperatures or ambient moist air under the shrink wrap may impact readings. So use of a moisture meter be best done when boat is exposed to normal weather.
Stinkpotter	Posted - 04/07/2019 : 19:26:42 I keep wondering... I'm dubious about moisture being "trapped" by bedding hardware--bedding keeps the worst out, and without it a lot more will go in as water than can come out in moisture in air. If the moisture from above is, in practical terms, unavoidable, then how about ventilating the core from below (in the cabin)--maybe with just a few inconspicuous holes in the inner liner toward the lower sides of the decks. That and a solar vent to hold down the interior humidity at night might, over long periods, stabilize the levels between the inner and outer fiberglass and in the plywood between them. I don't believe the plywood is tight to both sides. I suspect ventilating from below, while not eliminating moisture, might extend the stiffening of plywood--what can it hurt? But more generally, I agree that the C-25 is well built--perhaps over-built for its intended purpose. The external laminate is relatively solid, and the arched deck and interior bulkheads stiffen it further. The plywood was probably substantially stronger than needed, and even when softened, will maintain some stiffness just by filling the gap between the inner and outer shells (like corrugated paper does in cardboard boxes). As your advisers suggested, Catalina built a more solid vessel than its direct competitors--I remember a dealer at a boat show demonstrating and letting me try "oil-canning" a Hunter hull, and then asking me to try that on a Catalina--it was like a rock. I suspect the deck laminates compare similarly. Your boat will probably give you a good time for as long as you need. If I still had my '85 and wanted to keep it for "the duration", I might have run some Captain Tolley's around the tops of the rub-rail, window frames, and a few other suspicious areas... Then I'd go sailing! I suspect a solar vent would help by pulling down the interior moisture level that might contribute to the laminate and core issues from the less well sealed interior. At least it could't hurt. Night-time ventilation reduces relative humidity and condensation inside, thereby maybe increasing evaporation in the decks.
bigelowp	Posted - 04/07/2019 : 18:17:08 Without doing moisture meter readings my deck "feels" secure. The moisture readings indicate issues. The frustrating thing is how high the readings are, how relatively quickly they escalated, and the implications, such as paint (non-skid) not sticking because of moisture migrating through the deck. Overall, the life lesson is that older fiberglass boats do have issues . . . but . . . . are they serious structural or just inconvenient. A final comment: one person I spoke with said in wooden boats you WANT moisture to swell the wood and close seams, etc, Maybe some moisture is not all that bad -- or???? Only time will tell.
Voyager	Posted - 04/07/2019 : 12:26:15 I agree with Gerry in that -- whether most of us realize it or not - our boats are also subject to a similar process. Now Peter you occasioned to measure the wetness based on a look or feel of your foredeck. And what you found was pretty alarming. I've been following YouTuber BOAT LIFE for some time now. His deck and hull read over 50% and in some places 60%! This was largely due to a teak deck gone bad with screws penetrating the rotten teak and the top skin of the deck. The water got down into the bilge and did a lot of damage to the frames. In his case he literally tore open the deck and removed rotten balsa and replaced it, and opened the bilge to find wet pulpy wood. There was no doubt that his boat is structurally compromised and part of the process is to repair it at whatever the cost in time and resources. In our cases, the core for many of us has elevated moisture, however, this is entirely expected according to the info that Peter has learned. Funny thing from Peter's report is that the very act of sealing the deck fittings is what traps the moisture IN, rather than keeping it out. I wonder what most of our moisture readings would be if we had access to the device and knew how to properly use it? Will it ultimately be fatal to our boats? Probably not within our lifetime. What should we do about it? Probably what we're already doing. Go out, sail your boat, enjoy it to the max and quit worrying about things that we have little control over. In the words of the Beach Boys: "Sail On Sailor!!!"
glivs	Posted - 04/07/2019 : 05:40:54 Thanks for posting Peter...a complex issue to mull over
islander	Posted - 04/06/2019 : 16:38:40 Sounds like you've done your research, took a step back and came to a good decision. As I said before I'm sceptical about moisture meters and just how proficient the person using them are. I have a feeling that if you do another test in the heat of summer you could come up with different reading than now in the cool damp spring. Anyway I wouldn't let it bother me and continue to sail the boat.
bigelowp	Posted - 04/06/2019 : 14:23:45 I have learned more about moisture in fiberglass boats over the past couple of weeks than i ever hoped to and could talk about it for hours, but the key take aways on the subject are: 1. most people including surveyors don't understand how to use a moisture meter correctly. 2. there is much incorrect information floating around out there about moisture, what is "too high" a reading, where, within which laminate structure, etc., etc. 3. there has been a big fear factor created about moisture in fiberglass boats that gets people (like me) too panic. 4. you must dig for reliable informations and opinions, and 5. the amount of moisture that is "safe" depends and changes -- based on factors such as: will the boat be doing serious ocean work? or, will the boat be racing where systems are constantly pushed in every event? or, is the boat doing coastal work in places like San Francisco Bay or Buzzards Bay or will the coastal work be on the Chesapeake or Long Island Sound? or, is the boat in a notoriously humid (or dry) location (tropics)? or, is the boat used on lakes? or, is the boat used for day sailing? etc., etc. I could go on . . . As it turns out I know some resident experts -- who know other experts -- that I had forgotten about. My son grew up sailing and racing, which he still actively does. He is also a nonmetallic engineer at Electric Boat. One of the sailing friends he grew up with graduated from Michigan with an engineering degree in marine structure and is now a yacht designer at a firm in San Diego specializing in ocean racing vessels. Another childhood friend after college joined an east coast yard that does extensive refits of very pricy yachts -- all have sailed extensively on Limerick, know the condition when we obtained her and have even helped in some of the work on her over the years. So we all skyped and chatted. From their perspective the elevated numbers are no big deal and they are more concerned about other issues with Limerick. They opined that while Catalina is not known for building boats for ocean work, as a mass producer of boats (like Hunter, Beneteau, J-Boats, etc) they do a good job with the basic glass work like hulls and decks. The guys continued that the moisture most likely has been in the deck for "decades", is now trapped because of all the rebedding and fixing done over the past ten years I have owned her and has propagating into other areas resulting in the elevated meter readings over so much of the boat. While the numbers are high, they suggested I should do periodic readings on dry days, hot days, warm days and cold days throughout the year and see if the readings are consistent or not. If there is significant deviation, the meter or how I am using the meter is suspect. If the readings are relatively consistent then I have a good baseline to use to determine how quickly -- or not -- deterioration is taking place. Meanwhile it was suggested I should reinforce critical hardware with larger backing plates to spread stress. Fix things like window gaskets that have not been replaced. Rebed hardware more often, etc., etc. They also opined what on Limerick they would be more concerned about than moisture in the decks, including: the keel bolts on my boat (Catalina smile); deck to hull seam (easily damaged if in collision with dock); and compression post -- because all are more susceptible to catastrophic failure than wet decks. Based on how I use Limerick none were worried about safety from the moisture and all thought the boat had at least 10 more years of useful life -- albeit with virtually no resale value because people "get freaked" about moisture. The friend who does refits on boats also thought that most fiberglass sailboats used recreationally would have "high" moisture readings opining that he would expect moisture readings to go from 0-5% in the first decade of use and escalate by @5% each decade so most 40 year old boats could well have 20-25%+ moisture in the decks. All of this confirms what my yard and another yard I discussed this with had said. In short, while "shocking" to hear, the data is not really a surprise based on age, previous condition, manufacturer and use. So I guess I am going to just sail-on for now
Steve Milby	Posted - 04/04/2019 : 10:36:20 I've seen both methods used, i.e. drilling and filling vs. tearing out the old core material and rebuilding it. Drilling and filling is OK if you're only repairing a small area, because it's easier to dry out a small area. The moisture doesn't have to travel very far to escape from a drilled hole, and you can speed it up by digging out the wet coring with a bent nail and using a heat source. But for large areas, it's faster to tear it out and replace it, and, if you do it right, you can be sure you'll never have to re-do that area again.
islander	Posted - 04/04/2019 : 10:07:04 Without opening the decks up to dry out I think you would be just sealing the water in. If safety is concerning you remember the only stays that rely on the deck are the lower shrouds so I wouldn't worry about a demasting situation. Mostly the deck will start to bulge up around stays that are anchored to the deck as time goes on. Sail the boat and just keep an eye on it. Nothing is going to happen overnight. Or sell it and move on or up.
Stinkpotter	Posted - 04/04/2019 : 08:21:26 Here's another off-the-wall thought for a boat not worth the major surgery, or even major re-bedding projects: Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure. It's a little like penetrating epoxy, but "wateryer" and more like a sealant when it sets up. Squirt it in, under and around anything that might be sources of your leaks. What can it hurt?
Voyager	Posted - 04/04/2019 : 06:16:15 Steve, in your post you bring up a few great points. �> Don�t try to save the old skin on a major repair. Use the tried and true methods you outlined. �> Do whatever you must to keep rain water out of the exposed portions of the boat during the repair. In my experience,I�ve only done one or two-day fiberglass repairs so I�ve never had to consider that aspect. That�s why this forum is so great. We mostly help prevent our colleagues avoid the common mistakes.
Voyager	Posted - 04/04/2019 : 06:07:48 Wow Scott, your post made me re-read Peter�s 3/30 post, and you�re right! Most of the core is wet especially where it makes the greatest difference - where you walk and run the boat. So I�d agree the best advice is to take a page out of Mad Magazine�s Alfred E Newman�s book: �What, me worry?� and enjoy sailing all spring, summer and fall. Meanwhile keep your eyes peeled for another boat. Hint: they�re usually least expensive after Labor Day. It�s a win-win really. The happiest day in a boater�s life and an opportunity to learn a new boat.
Steve Milby	Posted - 04/02/2019 : 06:33:27 You might be correct that the boat in this case needs too much core replaced to be practicable, but, for the benefit of anyone in the future who combs through our website looking for guidance on the subject, we shouldn't let this thread end on such a negative tone. I have seen the coring on the coach roof, most of the foredeck and part of the side deck repaired on a smallish boat by an owner, and it's a lot of work, but very do-able. However, your goal should be to restore the boat's functionality, and not to restore it to aesthetic perfection. Don't try to save the skin and restore the factory non-skid. Cut off the skin, dig out the wet core, install new core, fill it with resin, apply a new skin to cover it all, sand it, paint it with Kiwi Grip, and go sailing. One thing people don't think about when they begin the project is that you must have some way of keeping it covered and protected from rain. Once you remove the skin, rainwater can penetrate into new areas that were previously dry, exacerbating the problems. The next time you go to work on it, you'll have to first dry it out again. If you keep it dry between work sessions, the work will go much quicker. It's a big, messy job, but it can be done.
islander	Posted - 04/02/2019 : 04:20:01 Pete's problem is not contained to a small area or hatch. From what he described his entire deck from the rub rail up is wet. Side decks, for decks, cabin top, cockpit floor. Everything but the cockpit seats. That's enormous. Even if Pete has the capability to take on a job like that Think about the resale value of the boat afterwards. Not much in my opinion. If I was looking for a boat to buy I would definitely pass on something that had that much repairs done to it especially when you are in an area where boats are a dime a dozen.
Voyager	Posted - 04/01/2019 : 18:34:45 Steve, the YouTube deck repair video you pointed out was somewhat similar to the repair I outlined in my 3/25 comment above. The guy in the 2nd part of the video tried to salvage the top skin of the engine cover panel, but the wooden core was just not rotted out enough for him to separate it from the wood. In my post I recommended trying to save the top skin. If Peter could do that, then replacing the core with honeycomb foam would very likely do the trick. When I sized up the deck area above the vee berth around the frosted glass light I reckoned it would take a day to prep and remove the top skin, a day to remove the wet core and a day or two to clean and replace the core and replace the top skin. Cleanup, sanding and painting would be another day. It�s a lot of work but the cost would be a few hundred for resin and paint.
Steve Milby	Posted - 03/31/2019 : 13:55:18 The out-of-pocket cost of repairing deck core isn't great if you DIY. It's prohibitively expensive to hire it done on a small older boat because it's labor intensive. Here's a link to a video that shows two repairs. https://youtu.be/8OW3Qncbh8o
islander	Posted - 03/31/2019 : 12:22:34 Sorry to say but I agree with the yard advise. There is a line where the cost to repair isn't worth it. I think you will still get many more years of use if you keep her. I wish I had a better answer.
bigelowp	Posted - 03/30/2019 : 14:02:27 Spent a lot of time Friday and Saturday on the subject. Bottom line, cabin top, one side deck and cockpit floor measured averaging 30%+ while fore deck and the other side deck range averaged between 15%-25% -- being measured by two people one using a Tramex the other a Electrophysics meter. Lots of discussion at yard. They suggest I spend no more money on the boat, sail as is, and I should get "a few" more seasons before mast step/critical deck hardware cause any safety issues -- as boat currently is used (light daysailing). How and from where did moisture originate? We identified many potential options, some may have been remediated some not so. All boils down to how much do you throw into fixing a boat when there are so many readily available, for less than the repairs will cost. Lots of food for thought!
Voyager	Posted - 03/27/2019 : 19:37:04 After I made my comments above I took a good look at my foredeck between the cabintop and the anchor locker. The only gap in the deck there is the frosted portlight that allows sunlight into the vee berth. It seems to me that this frosted plastic block could easily leak a fair amount of water in between the top and bottom layers. I�d check it from the top, from the bottom and all over. I can�t believe it would have moved up from the forestay chain plate, the anchor locker or the cleats. It might be able to leak in from the hatch but I did not see any gap between the top and bottom skins there.

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.