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How do you tack?

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[quote][i]Originally posted by Steve Milby[/i]
[br][quote][i]Originally posted by HerdOfTurtles[/i]
[br]Despite all my strength and pulling out from the mast on the jib halyard for leverage I could not get the Genoa tight enough and there were 2" deep scallops between the hanks. I'm not 100% sure what the problem is but it may be the Genoa luff is slightly too long. I also loosen the backstay prior to tightening the jib halyard, then crank down on the backstay after to try and get it a bit tighter. [/quote]
When I first bought my Cal 25 I had the same problem.  It might be that the luff is too long as you suggested, but I got lucky and found a simpler solution.  The previous owner installed a snap shackle at the head of the sail and at the clew.  Snap shackles are much longer than ordinary D shackles, so I replaced the snap shackles with small D shackles, and that enabled me to get the jib's luff as taut as I needed to.  Look at your shackles and see if you can do the same.

If not, a sailmaker should be able to shorten your luff a couple inches.
[/quote]

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T O P I C R E V I E W
HerdOfTurtles	Posted - 04/22/2019 : 13:08:13 Hue hue hue. We took the boat out for a beercan race in 12-15 kts and it was pretty sporty for the three of us. I've got a 155% genoa and don't have any reefing rigged for the main so we were flying full canvas and spent a lot of time around 45 degrees heeled. We split roles into: Grinder - Sits farthest forward. Duty is to release the sheet and unwrap the sheet from the winch. Then, once the Tailer has pulled in the sheet as far as possible by hand, the Grinder puts the winch handle in and grinds it in the rest of the way. Tailer - Sits in the middle, in-line with the winches. Duty is to pull the jib sheet in by hand as far as possible on a tack and tail for the grinder. Skipper - Self-explanatory. How do you change sides if you're the Skipper? I found I got in the way of the Tailer if I tried to walk in front of the tiller so I began standing on the seat, ducking under the backstay and walking over the tiller - quite acrobatic. So how do ya'll do it? How quickly do you throw the tiller over for a tack? I have come to the conclusion throwing the tiller over hard is the optimum strategy because it gets wind back in the sails the soonest. The biggest downside to this strategy in my opinion is it makes the Tailer and Grinder's jobs harder as the sail fills with wind before the Tailer has a chance to pull in all the slack. Therefore more grinding is required and it takes longer for the sail to reach optimal trim. I imagine there is a sweet spot where you throw the tiller over just hard enough that the Tailer has just enough time to take most the slack out before the sail fills with wind and so the grinding is minimized, the sails fill up reasonably fast, and the turn is just gentle enough as to not lose too much speed. Do you believe in the sweet spot or do you just jam it over?
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
keats	Posted - 05/10/2019 : 11:23:41 quote: Originally posted by sethp001 quote: Originally posted by redeye Then I move my beer from the low side to the high side As I read through these twenty posts, I felt like everybody was forgetting a step. My preference is to deploy a port and starboard beverage. Then I don't have to think about it.
sethp001	Posted - 05/10/2019 : 05:58:59 quote: Originally posted by redeye Then I move my beer from the low side to the high side As I read through these twenty posts, I felt like everybody was forgetting a step.
Steve Milby	Posted - 05/09/2019 : 10:21:52 quote: Originally posted by HerdOfTurtles Despite all my strength and pulling out from the mast on the jib halyard for leverage I could not get the Genoa tight enough and there were 2" deep scallops between the hanks. I'm not 100% sure what the problem is but it may be the Genoa luff is slightly too long. I also loosen the backstay prior to tightening the jib halyard, then crank down on the backstay after to try and get it a bit tighter. When I first bought my Cal 25 I had the same problem. It might be that the luff is too long as you suggested, but I got lucky and found a simpler solution. The previous owner installed a snap shackle at the head of the sail and at the clew. Snap shackles are much longer than ordinary D shackles, so I replaced the snap shackles with small D shackles, and that enabled me to get the jib's luff as taut as I needed to. Look at your shackles and see if you can do the same. If not, a sailmaker should be able to shorten your luff a couple inches.
HerdOfTurtles	Posted - 05/09/2019 : 09:19:58 Just measured. We tacked through 111 degrees.
HerdOfTurtles	Posted - 05/09/2019 : 09:05:47 We double-handed last night and I can report cleaning and lubing the winches did indeed allow the handle to be placed in the winch prior to pulling the slack out of the genoa during a tack. Thank you Steve for that suggestion. Still have a bunch of bugs to work out though. The stock placement of the traveler control cleats makes it very difficult for the skipper to adjust in heavy wind as it was last night. Replacing those cleats with cleats that have an extreme angle fairlead would probably work but getting to the hardware holding those cleats on looks to be a nightmare. Despite all my strength and pulling out from the mast on the jib halyard for leverage I could not get the Genoa tight enough and there were 2" deep scallops between the hanks. I'm not 100% sure what the problem is but it may be the Genoa luff is slightly too long. I also loosen the backstay prior to tightening the jib halyard, then crank down on the backstay after to try and get it a bit tighter. I really needed a smaller headsail(possibly should have reefed the main, but even luffing we were heeled too far) because we were heeled over so far the keel was slipping and making leeway - we tacked through something like 120 degrees. It also didn't help the chop was slapping the boat back.
AlMo	Posted - 05/06/2019 : 07:13:34 Speaking of lubing the winches yearly, I guess it is time for me to do so when one of them no longer makes the "ratcheting" noise? How is this done anyhow? I see a screw in the center of the capstan, is that removed to gain access? And what type of lube is best? Thanks all, for a great reading thread! It never dawned on me that crew coordination varies from one boat to another--I race on a Laser 28 with a crew of six! It seems to me that tailer/grinder roles are important on a smaller but heavier C25 relative to the Laser 28, but the lighter and longer the boat, the more weight shift when tacking is just as important as snappy lazy-to-active sheeting. Just a thought in the dark here. Thanks, Alex
Steve Milby	Posted - 04/29/2019 : 14:25:59 Good for you! You might have saved your winches from expensive damage. I had to replace the original Barient winches on my C&C because they had been neglected too long and I couldn't find parts to repair them.
islander	Posted - 04/29/2019 : 13:48:48 I have sunbrella covers. I don't know how waterproof they are but the idea is to keep dust and dirt from washing down into the winch and sticking to the grease. Enough dirt stuck to the grease and it becomes a grinding compound. The way I see it, Winches aren't cheap, Covers are.
HerdOfTurtles	Posted - 04/29/2019 : 12:02:56 Steve, I pulled the winches this weekend and cleaned and lubed them. I did one at a time so I could compare side by side. I used 3in1 on the pawls and super lube on the bearings, gears, and shafts. The side by side difference unloaded was not great, smoother yes but not quite what I was hoping for. Unloaded, the winch handle no longer spins so that's a plus. It remains to be seen whether or not it will spin under load. There is a big difference in sound. The untouched winch made a groaning noise coming from the bearings. On the newly cleaned and lubed winch all you can hear is the clicking of the pawls and a ringing from the drum. I found water in one of the winches but not in the other. I have never covered the winches and don't have covers. It seems most people do not cover their winches, but I think it's the only way to keep the water out... water drains from the handle socket into the winch - I've never seen water stay pooled in the handle socket.
redeye	Posted - 04/29/2019 : 05:45:58 Singlehanded. 10-15mph winds. First I say �prepare to come about�. Then I move my beer from the low side to the high side, and see if anything else needs attention; like the winch on the high side has the jib sheet on it with two wraps, and the sheet on the low side is ready to pay out. Then I wait for somebody to say �ready to come about�. I stand up and pull the jib sheet out of the clam cleat, and straight up off the winch careful to release the line from my hands without getting caught, while I push the tiller over out of my way. Turning to the other winch I pull the jib sheet in to pick up the slack and wait for the wind to push the jib clew past the shrouds, and bring the tiller back in front of my leg, using my leg to adjust the boats direction, still heading up but past the eye of the wind. As soon as the wind blows the clew clear of the shrouds I pull in all slack very quickly and tighten the jib, add another wrap ( the third ) to the winch and secure the line in the clam cleat. I sit back down on the high side quickly pulling the tiller over to me to fill the jib, or come back up as needed and then Immediately look up at the wind vane to adjust my direction. Then I will let out the jib sheet as need to adjust the slot. Often I will sit down on the low side and look up to adjust the slot and view the tell tails. I move back to the high side and clean up the lines, pulling in the slack on the windward jib sheet and put two wraps on the winch, line into the clam cleat and tail into the coaming. I lower winds it�s a breeze, in higher winds it all goes faster. Variations� Lower winds I would let the main and jib out more and prevent pinching off the wind by adjusting too tight. Higher winds the same to reduce heel. When I sail with others I break down the jobs for one or two accordingly. They handle the sheets and watch me do some tacks alone first. I generally assign a winch to each if we have two and they keep their sides until the tack is over.
Steve Milby	Posted - 04/27/2019 : 08:19:27 Here's a link to a discussion of Andersen winches on Sailboat Owners. https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/considering-andersen-winches-any-opinions.126697/
Leon Sisson	Posted - 04/27/2019 : 06:57:38 I'm certainly no expert on sailboat racing. Having said that, regarding tacking speed and helm movement, I try to smoothly accelerate and decelerate the rate (degrees-per-second?) at which the boat is turning. To me, that feels like it gets the boat through tack with the least loss of speed due to rudder turbulence. Steve mentioned Anderson primary winches. How do those of you who have used them like them compared to other brands? How do you like their self-tailers (12ST for example)?
Steve Milby	Posted - 04/26/2019 : 15:31:26 quote: Originally posted by Stinkpotter quote: Originally posted by Steve Milby ...If the winch handle spun when you tailed the line with the handle in the winch, then your winches need to be cleaned and lubricated. They shouldn't do that. Really? It seems to me the handle will spin when the drum turns clockwise unless something (almost anything) obstructs it even slightly--then it will ratchet. Yes, really. It happened once with the original bronze Merriman winches on a 70 year old boat that I sailed, but they hadn't been cleaned and lubricated in at least 15 years that I know of. Mine don't do that, nor do any that I use on other peoples' boats (Harkens, Lewmars, Andersons and others). I wouldn't suggest that people put the handle in the winch while tacking if it was was a normal occurrence, because obviously you could get hurt by a spinning winch handle. I've been tacking with the handle in the winch for 40-45 years and do it in every race in every tack. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself on any sailboat with decently maintained winches. I'm not making this up Dave. Incidentally, on the subject of winches, I just crewed on a friend's boat equipped with massive electric winches (two primaries and two on the coach roof for adjusting halyards, outhaul, etc.) It felt nekked to not have winch handles. It's push button sailing! Tail the line as far as you can by hand, lock the line in the self-tailer and then push a button and let the winch motor do the hard grinding.
Stinkpotter	Posted - 04/26/2019 : 14:07:14 quote: Originally posted by Steve Milby ...If the winch handle spun when you tailed the line with the handle in the winch, then your winches need to be cleaned and lubricated. They shouldn't do that. Really? It seems to me the handle will spin when the drum turns clockwise unless something (almost anything) obstructs it even slightly--then it will ratchet.
Steve Milby	Posted - 04/25/2019 : 13:45:35 I noticed you said this in an earlier post: quote: Originally posted by HerdOfTurtles 10-15kts tonight. Going to try to slow the tack just a hair, have winch handle already in, have crew opposite sides during the tack.... Visualize this: The jib is attached to the top of the mast. When there's no wind and the boat is not heeling, the sail will hang straight down to the base of the mast. But, if the boat is heeling, and the top of the mast has moved 1 1/2 ft to port, then the foot of the sail will hang directly below the top of the mast, 1 1/2 ft to port of the base of the mast. By getting the clew of the sail to hang farther outboard, it becomes less likely to snag on the shroud. If there's some wind, the wind will also help push the clew even farther outboard. Thus, your crew weight should be on the new, low side during the tack, to force the boat to heel. Your observation was good that overly heavy sheets might be part of the problem. Your sheets should be either 1/4" or not more than 3/8". If the winch handle spun when you tailed the line with the handle in the winch, then your winches need to be cleaned and lubricated. They shouldn't do that.
HerdOfTurtles	Posted - 04/25/2019 : 12:18:59 Results: Genoa got snagged too often to be able to pull the slack out in time. Leaving the winch handle in causes the handle to spin around wildly while taking up the slack so we abandoned that. Primary issue to address is the genoa snagging. The clew snagged on the shrouds most tacks and one tack the leech got snagged on the mast winch. We are already using what I believe to be one of the best clew attachments for avoiding snags(single sheet, luggage tagged) so I am looking into getting shroud rollers instead of changing up the clew attachment. I am hoping the leech snagging on the mast winch will continue to be a rare event so I don't have to do anything about it. I'm also considering getting some lighter weight sheets (but same diameter) because it feels like the drag from the free sheet is enough that it pulls the genoa backward toward the shrouds. Anyone have any tips for preventing the genoa from snagging?
HerdOfTurtles	Posted - 04/24/2019 : 09:04:55 10-15kts tonight. Going to try to slow the tack just a hair, have winch handle already in, have crew opposite sides during the tack then shift to high side after tack is complete, and going to try the thumbs up sheet handling tactic. Steve, yes I wish I had a 135 for wind like last week or I would have used it. Peregrine, good tip. Don't know why I never thought of it for the jib sheets - that's the way I always pull the main sheet in when holding a hiking stick.
Peregrine	Posted - 04/23/2019 : 21:14:33 There a lot things you can do to make your tacks go easier and faster but IMO how you handle the sheets will make the biggest difference. I single hand and I almost always over trim and am letting the sheet out rather than needing to use the winch to pull the sheet in. It's because of the way I was taught trimming while racing. Most people grab the sheet and their hand is facing up, where your fingers are on the top. Turn your hand over with fingers facing down and the sheet enters your hand at the pinky. That way you can pull the sheet past your torso to the side of your body. Not only can you pull harder you will haul in almost three times the amount of sheet in, in each pull. You should be over trimmed before the tack is complete and have to ease the sheet to properly trim. Yes I'm using both hands/arms my foot has become a third hand on the tiller.
Steve Milby	Posted - 04/23/2019 : 14:00:26 quote: Originally posted by HerdOfTurtles Steve, with one wrap the line would slip around the drum so you could pull the slack in very fast. With two wraps or more the line would grip the drum even if totally slack which made it difficult to pull fast enough to take out the slack before she came around. Granted on that boat we should definitely have been turning slower, but even when we were turning slower, in medium/light air often the genoa would decide to snag something for a couple seconds and then it was back to panic mode of pull it in as fast as possible. I agree with Scott. The drum should spin freely and probably needs to be lubricated. If the bearings are bad they usually growl. In very light air I often send crew to the foredeck to walk the jib around the rigging, especially on bigger boats, but if you shift all your crew weight to leeward when tacking in light air, it helps the sail get clear of the rigging.
Steve Milby	Posted - 04/23/2019 : 13:52:27 quote: Originally posted by HerdOfTurtles I have had difficulty with the slow tack method or else I wouldn't have decided against it. I've found the extra time spent directly to windward can slow the boat down too much to the point you lose steering responsiveness and when the sails fill instead of having the momentum to round up the boat gets knocked down past close hauled despite your best attempts to keep it from doing so. I missed this point earlier. You're saying that the boat loses momentum before you are able to get the jib trimmed in and driving. The problem here is that, when you're beating to windward in frisky conditions, the chop slaps your bow and rubs off your momentum. The boat slows and doesn't respond to the rudder. As the sailing conditions change, you have to make changes to adapt to the conditions. I think the first change you'll need to make in those conditions is to reduce sail area to a smaller jib. As you know, a big, overlapping genoa snags on the rigging and, while you're struggling to get it in trim and drawing, the boat nearly stops and becomes uncontrollable. If you have a smaller jib, such as a 90 or 100 or even a 110, it will be much easier to tack without snagging. In more moderate conditions you can afford to struggle a little with a snagging genoa, but in heartier conditions you can't. You can't afford little delays. Last year I crewed on a friend's Jenneau 35, and we were sailing in the Bay with a 100% jib in 30+ kt winds. I was able to snap the jib over onto a new tack so fast that I almost didn't need to grind the winch at all. I have done the same on a friend's Beneteau First 40.7 in big winds. Too often, people are reluctant to change down to a smaller sail when the wind rises, and they struggle with the wrong sail. Using the right sail for the conditions makes everything much easier. As the winds increase and the chop increases, you obviously have to make your turns more quickly, to avoid losing momentum, but you also have to have a smaller jib that you can get in trim and driving more quickly. The slower procedure I described before was appropriate for moderate sailing conditions. As the conditions change, you have to change your sails and your procedures to fit the sailing conditions.
islander	Posted - 04/23/2019 : 13:42:23 If you have that much drag with the winches maybe it's time for service . I use 2 wraps and the winches spin like tops but I do lube them yearly.
HerdOfTurtles	Posted - 04/23/2019 : 13:17:00 Steve, with one wrap the line would slip around the drum so you could pull the slack in very fast. With two wraps or more the line would grip the drum even if totally slack which made it difficult to pull fast enough to take out the slack before she came around. Granted on that boat we should definitely have been turning slower, but even when we were turning slower, in medium/light air often the genoa would decide to snag something for a couple seconds and then it was back to panic mode of pull it in as fast as possible.
Steve Milby	Posted - 04/23/2019 : 12:21:40 quote: Originally posted by HerdOfTurtles ...On that boat we did not want to put the winch handle in until after the slack was taken out because if you had a couple turns on the winch drum it would be too difficult to pull the slack out in time and if you only had one turn on the winch drum you could pull the slack out but then you would have difficulty putting on two more wraps with the handle in the way and wind filling the sail. The strategy there was one wrap while pulling out the slack, then two wraps as fast as you can then jam the winch handle in and grind away. I don't understand why it's hard to pull the slack out of the jibsheet when there are two wraps on the drum. I use two wraps except in extremely light air on every boat including my friend's 45' Jenneau. In stronger winds I use three wraps, and have used as much as four wraps, and don't see why it should be hard to pull in the slack. I'm 76 years old, less than half the man I used to be, and never was a powerlifter. The tailer should begin to pull in the slack as soon as the working jibsheet is released, and not wait until the sail is streaming along the new side. When you begin the tack with the handle in the winch, as I suggest, then you can use it to grind the sheet in to the closehauled trim as soon as you have pulled in the sheet as far as you can. That enables the boat to point as high and foot as fast as possible. Doing it your way, you have to take 2-3 seconds or more to fumble with the handle and get it into the winch, and then you can grind the sheet in to the closehauled trim. After the sail is in closehauled trim and the boat is pointing high and footing fast, then you can take the time to put extra wraps on the winch drum. You can put extra wraps on the drum with the handle in or out, but it's easier with the handle out, but after the sail is in final trim, there's no hurry.
HerdOfTurtles	Posted - 04/23/2019 : 10:34:24 I agree that having the winch handle in before beginning the tack is probably the way to go on a C-25 and that's what I'm going to try tomorrow.
HerdOfTurtles	Posted - 04/23/2019 : 10:29:38 Steve, thanks for the long response. I'm sure future readers will also appreciate you taking the time to go into detail. That's great general tacking advice but I think if you're tacking your Cal 25 exactly the same as your C&C 35 then there's room for improvement. On a big boat with a big 150 genoa yes it's absolutely crucial you tack slow enough to allow the tailer to pull in all the slack. On a C-25... even in the worst case scenario where the helmsman has come around to close hauled without the tailer taking up any slack the sail can still usually be wrangled in relatively quickly. I was in a race through a narrow pass(tack every 2-3 minutes) going upwind in heavy wind on a Catalina 36 MKII and the skipper did not understand the crew needed more time to pull the slack out and we got absolutely run ragged grinding for an eternity every tack. It was infuriating. On that boat we did not want to put the winch handle in until after the slack was taken out because if you had a couple turns on the winch drum it would be too difficult to pull the slack out in time and if you only had one turn on the winch drum you could pull the slack out but then you would have difficulty putting on two more wraps with the handle in the way and wind filling the sail. The strategy there was one wrap while pulling out the slack, then two wraps as fast as you can then jam the winch handle in and grind away. I have had difficulty with the slow tack method or else I wouldn't have decided against it. I've found the extra time spent directly to windward can slow the boat down too much to the point you lose steering responsiveness and when the sails fill instead of having the momentum to round up the boat gets knocked down past close hauled despite your best attempts to keep it from doing so. I think crew experience is a significant factor here as well. With an inexperienced crew I think they will usually take too long and you will lose too much boat speed attempting a slower tack and you're better off with a hard - over tack. With experienced crew I think you can find that Goldilocks turning speed.

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.