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Problem....big Problem

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/08/2002 : 09:18:38

Many of you probably remember the post I wrote at the end of last season regarding the head tank and the leak and the vent tube...Turns out the smell and the water was from something completely different. The compression post, which we have come to find is actually two pieces, was completely rotted. Thus the smell of decaying wood, which is very similar to the other smell!

The second piece, which was only completely visible after we removed the head tank had absorbed enough water over the years to rot it through and through and then through again. Just for edification, the second piece of the compression post fits snugly into the forward starboard corner of the forward port locker and buts up agains the fiberglass top that the visible (in the cabin) compression post partially rests on. At first, we had just thought that it was due to a head tank leak, but we were wrong. As we have come to find out, the very bottom of the compression post is uncovered and runs flush with a limber holes that is part of the channel that runs underneath the cabin sole.

That much water being down there is really no shock. The boat was left open for ten years while on the hard, to second the matter, the lowest point on the boat changes while on a cradle as opposed to a trailer as opposed to jack stands. This none the less allowed water to congregate at the area of the wood and rot it through and through.

The first order of business of course is to dry out the boat. Since it is just glass down there, (it is isn't it?) We are going to shop vac the thing and run a dehumidifier constantly for at least a month. Maybe even longer than that!

Secondly, we want to glass the small area of that hole to the compartment closed. Lastly install a new 4x4 and glass it in place like its nobody's business. We also want to install inspection plates, probably 2, in the cabin floor along so that we can monitor the moisture in that area.

That leads to my questions

1. Any other thoughts or ideas?
2. What do you suggest for the type of wood.
3. Where can we install the inspection plates so that they will actually be where we want them, i.e. so that we don't hit the keel!!
4. What specific God, god or gods should we be worshipping at this particular time?

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 09:57:12

Duane,

Is the odor your experiencing kind of, for the lack of a better term, "pissy" smelling? The reason I ask is, when I first went to the boat this year it had this odor. I did find about a gallon of water under the aft dinette seat and removed it. I then removed all of the seat/berth access covers for air circulation and bought a Spring Rain scented Renuzit air freshener(Yo, Don,..Are you nuts?..Spring Rain?). I've read about marine head hoses getting old and possibly leaching odors so I thought I should probably replace those if the odor is still around, but now you go ahead and throw another possibility into the mix. Anyway, I guess I have one more thing to look at the next time I go to the boat. Thanks ever so much! <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 10:10:57

Item (2): if you should decide to go with treated lumber to replace the post - keep in mind its twisting characteristics. You may be well ahead to glue & screw together two treated 2x4s with a ~1/2" piece as a spacer in the middle to achieve the required dimensions. Of course, that leaves the issue of finish - perhaps 1/4" teak veneer. If you don't have access to a table saw Duane, I'd be happy to rip any type of lumber to any dimension for you - Pittsburgh to Cleveland only takes one day via UPS ground.
Item (3): Not sure of your layout, but on my traditional interior there's a flat, vertical fiberglass area right next to the compression post.
If you've got a digital camera and the time Duane this sounds like a hidden problem that all of us should be aware of.
Gee, with all this talk of stay tension, bet you it would be kind of difficult to keep proper tension if your mast kept sinking as the compression post kept compressing!

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ (Ode to Joy)

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 11:17:41

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Item (2): if you should decide to go with treated lumber to replace the post - keep in mind its twisting characteristics. You may be well ahead to glue & screw together two treated 2x4s with a ~1/2" piece as a spacer in the middle to achieve the required dimensions. Of course, that leaves the issue of finish - perhaps 1/4" teak veneer. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Steve,
Thanks for the advice. I wouldn't be so worried about any veneer. None of this is visible in my model (so as not to confuse I will call it the McDonalds model, as it has a booth) Its hard to describe, but if you were to take a congruent piece out of the bottom of the post and still leave two sides of the post you would have the piece I am talking about. Then, if you would insert a box into the missing segment (box being the compartment) and inside the box, add the piece you cut out, that would be what went bad. 
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If you don't have access to a table saw Duane, I'd be happy to rip any type of lumber to any dimension for you - Pittsburgh to Cleveland only takes one day via UPS ground.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Thank goodness I got married. Between my father in-law and myself we have a router table, table saw, drill press, radial saw, miter saw and one of those mitersawlike things that doesn't cut angles...plus every other implement know to man....We just need to get a band saw and a planer!.....The twisting is a good point, but the peice is only about 2 feet high.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Item (3): Not sure of your layout, but on my traditional interior there's a flat, vertical fiberglass area right next to the compression post.
If you've got a digital camera and the time Duane this sounds like a hidden problem that all of us should be aware of.
Gee, with all this talk of stay tension, bet you it would be kind of difficult to keep proper tension if your mast kept sinking as the compression post kept compressing!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Actually, we are thinking of putting them right on the floor...I will try and take some photos and we will see what we can do...It may take a while though...As for the compressing, I guess the remaining piece of the post which was visible from the head was doing all the work, thank goodness it held....



Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 04/08/2002 11:20:29

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 11:21:20

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Duane,

Is the odor your experiencing kind of, for the lack of a better term, "pissy" smelling? The reason I ask is, when I first went to the boat this year it had this odor. I did find about a gallon of water under the aft dinette seat and removed it. I then removed all of the seat/berth access covers for air circulation and bought a Spring Rain scented Renuzit air freshener(Yo, Don,..Are you nuts?..Spring Rain?). I've read about marine head hoses getting old and possibly leaching odors so I thought I should probably replace those if the odor is still around, but now you go ahead and throw another possibility into the mix. Anyway, I guess I have one more thing to look at the next time I go to the boat. Thanks ever so much! <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Don,

We are replacing the hoses, but, as I said, that wasn't the real problem.!!

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 15:37:26

I had a similar problem with my old Santana 21. Water leaked around the chainplate and caused some rot in the port and strabord bulkheads. Had to cut out the old bulkheads make new ones out of marine plywood. fiberglass them back in. Scarry start cutting into the boat, but had to be done.
In regards to the compression post, I think I would go with oak or someother hard wood. Treated wood has a lot of moisture in it, preservative, that would make venerring difficult. Also it is quite toxic to work with. I don't know what the strength of it is for that application. i have read about people making wooden boats using treated wood for the stem post and chine logs and they say they have had good results. These were work boats and apperance wasn't a major factor.
Fiberglassing is not the big mistery that people make it out to be. Use small batches or you will make a mess, put a thin coat of resin on a well prepared surface, lay on the precut cloth and soak it with a little more resin. Be sure to weare latex gloves. I will also soak the cloth in resin and squeze out excess and then apply it, this is kind of hard if you are working upside down. When done clean up with rubbing alcohol. Methanol works wonders for clean up if the resin is fresh. Before the cloth gets too hard you can trim any excess.
Check out defenders catalogue they have a lot of information on applying fiberglass as well as the west system web site.
Good luck

Matt
EC Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK SR

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 17:01:59

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Treated wood has a lot of moisture in it, preservative, that would make venerring difficult. Also it is quite toxic to work with.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thanks Matt,

I called Catalina and talked with a tech rep for about 20 minutes. He seemed to know his stuff so I feel confident. Sometimes you have to wonder if the guy on the phone is Frank's right hand man or his Grandson...(who I assume to be less than 10 years old if he has on)

Supposedly, there is no actual schematic with the size of that wood so we have to start from scratch...Thank God that the mast didn't break the deck over the past few years for one and 2, it was just a small piece.

He recommended teak, but the cost of a 4x4 in teak has got to be ridiculous, plus I don't think 4x4's are readily available. He also said any of your hardwood types would be fine.

As for the glassing, I have more experience with that than I care to remember. A buddy of mine took a chunk out of his keel on an O'day and somehow I was recruited to rebuild it...

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 19:19:24

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but the cost of a 4x4 in teak has got to be ridiculous, plus I don't think 4x4's are readily available.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You could use a 1x4 piece of teak, cut it up and bond/bolt the pieces it to get a 4x4 piece.
How long of a 4x4 piece do you need?

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 04/08/2002 19:20:12

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 20:47:49

Most pressure-treated wood (at least in the northwest) is Hemlock, a softwood, not suitable at all for this application. Not to mention it's treated with arsenic, not fun stuff to be exposed to. If you go with oak, seal it well. Oak is strong, but not stable. If it were me, I'd probably use mahogany, it's less expensive than teak but strong and easily worked.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 21:18:21

Duane,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... cost of a 4x4 in teak has got to be ridiculous, plus I don't think 4x4's are readily available.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You could use a 1x4 piece of teak, cut it up and bond/bolt the pieces it to get a 4x4 piece. -- Don Lucier<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I agree with Don. At about $15 to $20/bd.ft. for teak you're looking at maybe $40 to $60 just for the wood (try to find used), but the bottom of the compression post is no place to cut corners. (Well, actually you do have to cut that aft corner to fit the keel trunk...<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>) If it were me (and it almost was, and could yet be<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>), I'd bite the bullet and go with the teak. You might also consider non-wooden alternatives, such as stainless steel, aluminum, or heavy wall fiberglass or PVC tubing. In any event, I'd be sure to include strong endplates on any hollow post, bedded with epoxy mush to distribute the load. Be sure to double check for existing sag, and jack things back into position if necessary. Good luck, and please let us know what works!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Dave Seely
1st Mate

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46 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 22:47:10

I have read about people saturating wood with epoxy resin to make it completely waterproof. Has anyone here ever tried that? This sounds like the perfect application for epoxy saturated wood since it won't be exposed to any UV but I don't personally have any experience with it.

Edited by - on

William Matley
1st Mate

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52 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 22:49:13

Duane,
You have lots of good suggestions to consider but I'll add my 2 cents worth.

If it had happened to me I'd replace the post with any of the hardwood suggestions made to you already, depending on what I can find, I'd prefer teak just to keep it looking the same but I'd attach a treated 4x4 post on the lower portion. The bottom 6 inches or so should do. That will eliminate any chance of rot for as long as you own the boat and assuming you find and repair or control the moisture source, the repair should last the life of the boat.

I have had water in this lower area of my boat and I have all the parts to install a small bilge pump and automatic switch. The waste tank is not the source of any of my water because I replaced the tank and hoses last year and I just removed it again to complete my "thru hull" replacement project. The tank space was covered with a sheet of plastic just to be sure I could control any spills. The sheet was clean and dry and so was the hull.

I also know that the water in this lower bilge space doesn't come from rain because it was full of water last year and it never rained during the short 10 days that the boat was in Lake Huron.

All that is left for me is the swing keel cable hose so that's what I am looking at this spring.

I'd like to know if the Catalina 25 owners of fixed keel or wing keel boats get much water in this lower bilge area?

Edited by - on

kenobie51
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 09:00:28

Bill,
I have a 1980 C25 #1657 std rig swing keel. Maybe I'm lucky, but my C25 has spent the last six summers in the water 100% of the time and my bilge is as dry as a bone. My first year I had it I found and fixed leaks at the anchor locker tube, two windows, and rebeded the deck hardware. One place a lot of water was getting in durring rain was at the bottom hatch board. The sill at the bottom of the hatch sloped slightly toward the interior when the boat was sitting still. Water the ran down the outside of the hatch boards and would go under the bottom board. I took a peice 3/4 x 1/4 teak the length of the sill, fitted, screwed and caulked it to the sill on the inside next to the bottom board. End of leak.

---Larry Knobel
C25 1657

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 14:24:19

Have you considered using a non-wood component for the lower "hidden" part of the compression post?

I have the "McDonald's" layout also. The bottom "hidden" part of the compression post gets exposed to water from rain water leaks, condensation, etc. My biggest concern in replacing is using something that "IF" it gets exposed to water will not begin rotting AGAIN.

I wouldn't know what "non-wood" component to use, but I'm assuming that an extruded aluminum block held in place laterally by some 5200 would work. No rot, no problem.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 14:27:01

I would recommend that you drop your mast before doing any work.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 15:10:33

Albert,

Our mast comes down and goes on a rack with all the others every winter, so we just have to get everything finished first before we step it. We were lucky that the other part of the post held strong.I like your idea of a non wood component...although, I wouldn't know where to begin??? maybe a metal pole of sorts with a end cap on each that can be screwed outward? into place similar to that of a jack? Maybe even one of those new car jacks fully extended then bolted into place? It brings some interesting ideas..

What are everyone elses thoughts on non wood alternatives.

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 16:39:43

Duane,

How tall is this secondary compression post that you need to replace?

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 17:21:56

Take a look on this site www.rotdocktor.com it has a good deal of information about dealing with rot. How to treat it, the wood, how to repair it and what product line to use. This is a realy good product for delaminated decks. Rot in the coach roof or anywhere else.

Edited by - on

Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
329 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 17:29:23

Hi Duane, I'm trying to understand where the water came from. I know you have the S/K so there should be a trunk box where mine is open but does your post sit forward of the trunk? Also you can see that the shorter section of post is smaller and not lined up with the larger exposed section. And the aft corner is cut completely off, making the foot print quite small. I wonder then if you can't just use a couple of smaller pieces epoxied together for twist strength and then glassed in place and sealed like mine? Or a piece of 3" (or so) galvanized pipe with marine ply at the foot and head again all glassed in place?

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2da28b3127cce9d185a5c9dbb0000004410" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2da28b3127cce9d185a571c800000005410" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2da28b3127cce9d185a509db70000004410" border=0>

How about your bulkheads, do they show signs of stress?

Mark-
<img src="http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/l/c/lchaplin/unkarock/usflagwav.gif" border=0>
'Impulse'
C25 #533 DINN/FIN ~_/)~

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 17:31:35

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Take a look on this site www.rotdocktor.com it has a good deal of information about dealing with rot. How to treat it, the wood, how to repair it and what product line to use. This is a realy good product for delaminated decks. Rot in the coach roof or anywhere else.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Douglas,
Thanks for the words of wisdom, however I am dealing with a 2 foot 4x4 piece of wood that is powder! there is no cure...

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 17:37:10

Mark,

Your post is glassed in, it appears that ours wasn't or more possibly the glass delaminated over time. We could never spot it because the head tank was snug right in that compartment. In your very first photo, if you were to remove the glass, the bottom corner inboard and forward of the compartment of that post opens up into a limber hole. I don't know if there was a defect in our manufacture or what else and it wasn't glassed, or we had a crack over time that we obviously couldn't see, but the dry rot began from within....

Bulkheads are stable as can be but I will check again!!

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 21:11:49

Duane,

After looking at Mark's photos(very nice Mark, thanks) of this secondary compression post and after some thought, it appears to me that this post is probably used more for preventing stress cracks on the dinette seat rim than it is at transferring compression loads to the hull. The bottom of the post looks like it ends several inches above the hull and then glassed in the rest of the way. It would seem that if it were vitally structural, it would go all the way to the hull. You say your post has turned to dust. That tells me it has probably been that way for a very long time and didn't cause any catastrophic rig failures. Did your dinette seat crack? I had a Venture 25 swing keel and the compression post did not go straight to the hull, but instead sat on the hollow fiberglass swing keel trunk. I may be wrong, but the rig is relatively light with just some added downward pressure from the stays and shrouds and most of the forces acting on the rig when sailing are lateral and not straight down. I have yet to lift a C25 mast, but it can't be that heavy. I used to throw my Venture 25's mast up on my shoulder, walk up a ladder to the top of the boat, set the mast in the tabernacle, then push it up by hand with some grunting thrown in for good measure. I think you should just find a suitable replacement post that goes all the way to the hull, epoxy it in place, fix your leak(if you have one) and go sailing.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 04/09/2002 21:12:17

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 22:44:47

Don: Although I don't know the actual weight, I've handled my mast on a rack just enough to be convinced that I could never put it on my shoulder and go ANYWHERE. (It does include a Hood furler.) Such is the difference between Ventures and Catalinas. Hunters also--I've seen a Hunter 240 mast after it broke (catching a shroud on a piling in its slip), and it's like a drinking straw.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - bristle on 04/09/2002 22:50:07

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 22:51:34

Dave,

I've only lifted the mast high enough to put some blocking under it so I could get a 3 ft clearance between it and the cabintop for the winter. I can't remember how heavy it felt, but, yes it is more substantial than my Venture's mast. In a week I hope to set the mast and I'll let you know how it goes.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 23:41:08

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Duane,

After looking at Mark's photos(very nice Mark, thanks) of this secondary compression post and after some thought, it appears to me that this post is probably used more for preventing stress cracks on the dinette seat rim than it is at transferring compression loads to the hull. The bottom of the post looks like it ends several inches above the hull and then glassed in the rest of the way. It would seem that if it were vitally structural, it would go all the way to the hull...

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 04/09/2002 21:12:17
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

After reading Don's reply, I remembered that when I looked at the "lower" post (by inserting my head in and looking up) on my Catalina the top didn't even go all the way up to the bottom of the bench. It doesn't go all the way down nor does it reach all the way up.

Why not call Catalina and ask them what this secondary post is for BEFORE doing a bunch of work?

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2002 : 23:43:03

BTW, I started a thread on different wood types in the General Forum. It could be useful for determining which type of wood to use for the replacement compression post.

Its at http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=921

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - albert on 04/09/2002 23:43:54

Edited by - albert on 04/09/2002 23:44:34

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