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I need Docking HELP!!

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Initially Posted - 04/22/2007 : 12:18:29

OK, the Nauti Duck is launched. After a couple of hours to repair a frozen brake drum,

the 60' strap launch went off like clockwork. Then the Admiral and I proudly motored to our slip. We did a couple of practice turns around bouys and realized that this felt like a big 1970's Oldsmobile rather than the MGB-like turning of our old C22. So, armed with that knowledge and facing very brisk winds we headed for the slip. Long, and funny, story short - we pulled into the slip bow-first and ended up tying up stern-first.

Don't ask. No one was hurt. Thank goodness the neighbor's boat is not in yet. Also thank goodness that the inclimate weather had few others at the club or we'd be a legend.

Here are some things I think might have <s>helped</s> hurt:

1-We went too slow and I think that hurt our steering.
2-I cranked the wheel all the way over and that hurt our steering.
3-The bow is too high and that hurt our ability to slice thru the turn.

OK, please weigh in with lots of HELP. We have a family reunion this weekend and I am expected to give boat rides!

All advice is appreciated!! Also, would it be easier to go past our slip and then back in??

For the love of Neptune - HELP!!

P.S. I will write a happier note about my new launch wheel setup which performed wonderfully with no muscle needed. The launch was NASA-like.

We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/22/2007 12:26:50

kevinmac
Admiral

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732 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2007 : 13:10:01

Randy,

Can you provide more details about the problem you had? It is hard to know how to respond.

Also, you might search for a thread I started last year called "Sailing is easy, docking is hard". Although I was worse off than you, in that I had no experience with keelboats, only 15' dinghy sailing, before I got my C250...

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/22/2007 : 14:59:58

Well, with the C22 I would motor slowly to near the slip then put into neutral and as the bow passed our slip area I would then turn tight into the slip. With the C250 yesterday it seemed that I needed to initiate the turn before reaching the slip.

The dock runs West-East, and the fingers (and so the two boat slips) run North-South. I am in the Eastern side of our two slip area and would want the bow pointing North. The wind was blowing from East to West. We basically got blown against the Western side of the two slip area. Since the Admiral got onto the dock and had the bow rail we ended up doing the circle.

The main problem was making a tight turn. It was exacerbated by the East-to-West wind. The wind is more typically West-to-East or North-to-South which would have helped but still I need to make a fairly tight turn and the boat did not want to turn tight.

I will look up the thread you mentioned.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/22/2007 15:03:00

britinusa
Web Editor

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Response Posted - 04/22/2007 : 17:12:58

Randy, did you have a soft link installed to help the turn?

Paul

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2007 : 18:46:40

At very low speeds it really helps to be able to turn the outboard - either with a link like Arlyn's soft link or even reaching back and turning it by hand.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/22/2007 : 19:42:14

I have to say that this doesn't help my novice anxiety level. Kaija is easy to handle..... on the trailer.... parked. Haven't hit anything yet! I'm going to install Arlyn's softlink tomorrow.

Edited by - on

Jarrett Anderson
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/22/2007 : 22:41:17

You probably drew a big crowd with the 60' strap; I'm sure they went away disappointed with your launch. Sounds like it went very well!

I had a very good laugh with the docking. Not at you but I feel your pain, we've all been there. Even after taking basic keel boat an coastal cruising classes with much emphasis on docking with a bigger boat the 250 is hard to handle. The 250's are harder to maneuver at low speeds, than bigger boats because the trust of the motor is to the side of the rudder. It is easier to maneuver when the trust washes across the rudder, i.e. direct drive. The 250 has a lot more free board than your 22 to catch the wind. To steer the 250 you are going to need a little speed. I come in just fast enough to steer, coast into the slip and then hit reverse to slow down as I enter the slip. I think it is dangerous to have momma jumping off the boat when docking. Much less boat bickering when you come in and kiss the dock on your own instead of barking at each other. When backing out of the slip, and then for that first forward push, I use the tiller on the motor for added steering. It can cause some real heartburn to get the boat up to speed for steering when you have a wind blowing across your bow. With a little practice you can operate the wheel and the motor tiller in tandem.

Jarrett _/)

Edited by - on

atgep
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Response Posted - 04/22/2007 : 23:20:06

I find that backing up into the wind helps somtimes. It is like front wheel drive in the snow. Lots of practice will help. The soft-link and woking the engine is essential to slow speed operation.

Tom.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 03:10:41

At low speeds, if I need to kick the stern over a little more, I'll scull the rudder in one direction. Also, as mentioned earlier, a short burst on the outboard while it is hardover will kick the stern over pretty good too.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 06:14:35

As said earlier, Arlyn's soft link is probably the best thing you'll ever add to the boat. And, it won't cost you hardly anything. Buy the good quality bungie cord by the length.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 11:47:58

OK, it seems the consensus is the soft link. (I have also been looking at "hard link" versions too. I am more of a stainess steel guy than a bungee guy.) And, I guess I am going to have to get used to coming in faster than I am used to with the C22. Otherwise the soft link wont come into play. I think I will also get a big fender to mount on the dock where the bow would hit.

I agree about the Admiral jumping off. She didn't. Our rule is we only step off and then only when the boat has stopped. She did step off and the boat was stopped. Unfortunately the stop was momentary before we began the great circumnavigation of the slip.

The good news of the day is I learned a lot about wheel bearings and brakes

and the launch went incredibly well. I have a new launch wheel, jack, and strap system that performed wonderfully. I will post pictures of the components. All are completely stock.

The family reunion sail is Friday evening. I am praying for no wind.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 12:15:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 And, I guess I am going to have to get used to coming in faster than I am used to with the C22.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If I were you, I'd look at improving your docking technique rather than using more speed, because as they say around the docks, speed kills. You might want to try using a spring line when docking. I use a variation of the spring line.

[url="http://www.cruising.sailingcourse.com/docking.htm"]Docking and Anchoring[/url]

Edited by - on

welshoff
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 12:27:26

I had the soft link for a couple of months and then have since abandoned. With the wheel steering, you are already near enough to the motor to turn it by hand. In my case, I just didn't like having the two elements connected. Note: My motor does not have a throttle/tiller as my throttle and shift lever are binnacle mounted. Also, I always have fenders set and dock lines at the ready for the approach. Sometimes there are people at the dock willing to take lines and assist with docking. So having everything ready on approach is also good practice.

If wind is blowing: you do need some forward speed to turn the boat. Cross winds are a bear and pretty much eliminate any rudder input when moving slow and trying to dock. If wind is really blowing, the use of spring lines and dock lines are of great assistance (there are some good articles in the sailing mags on this). I never let my crew jump for the dock - this is very bad practice and unsafe. Once I get near the slip/dock, I center the rudder and reach down and steer with the motor (by centering the rudder I avoid any chance of the motor hitting the rudder). I keep a little tension on the motor friction lock so the motor does not move unless my hand. It takes practice to set up your approach to a dock/slip so you have the right angle and when to turn motor and apply power. Just practice and have patience. Note: keep your boat hook on deck and ready to help push/pull as needed.. Once you get the hang of how the boat moves and the way wind affects it - docking does become somewhat less stressful. Although when windy, my anxiety is always high when docking my boat.

If no wind: I usually leave the motor centered and use the rudder. Once you get the hang of the prop wash you can use it to your advantage to move the stern of the boat (by engaging forward or reverse as needed). Again, you need to get the correct angle of approach to the dock/slip and when to apply power and rudder. This does take practice and the more you do it the easier it will become.

I had a few bad docking episodes in the begining (have a copule extra scratches on the side of the boat now), but have since found with practice and good docking strategy most docking situations now are uneventful.

Edited by - on

Jarrett Anderson
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 12:30:12

Yeah, when I say kiss the dock I mean on a fender. I have not run the bow into the dock yet... knock on teak. I am also a fan of backing into the wind. It works well in a tight situation.

I was thinking about a stainless hard link as well. It would need to swivel with the hydraulic motor lift. Let me know what you come up with. I'm not big on bungee either.

I'm also interested in your launch wheel. I just use the stock trailer lift/wheel with a 40 foot tow strap. It works for one haul out a year. The launch at our marina is very shallow so the trailer extension doesn't cut it.

OK, I'm new some one throw a penalty flag if I'm messing up here, three topics on one thread.

Jarrett _/)

Edited by - on

Bill Arden
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 12:59:52

I've had similar experiences (and my previous boat was a West Wight Potter 19, so the difference was even more apparent!)

At a sailing school, I learned this technique for entering a slip: Start by aiming the bow at the cleat nearest the end of the slip (i.e., nearest to you and your boat). When you're confident that you're pointed that way, aim at the next cleat in. Continue until you're parallel to the finger pier.

From personal experience with my C250WK, I'd add that you must have enough forward speed to maintain steerage, and that it helps to take the turn wide. I steer with both the wheel and the outboard tiller (I don't have a softlink), and that definitely helps to kick the stern around in tight quarters.

The biggest place I found I needed practice was in setting my speed high enough to have steering control but low enough that I didn't have to scramble to get the outboard in reverse and at high revs to stop the boat. I'm still working on that one.

Good luck and enjoy! I envy you being on the water; it'll be another month before Prana is splashed.

Best regards,

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 16:43:37

Hi all... I received an email question and in the process of answering an explanation was given to why the soft link came about rather than a hard link and it occurred to me that the forum might enjoy that explanation.

During my first outing with my new 250 (Jan '96), I realized the motor and rudder needed connected during docking or retrieval to the trailer but the motor wouldn't yield a full starboard turn because of the tightness of the motor well. My first thought was to add a motor extension similar to the one Catalina added to their options later but I trailer exclusively and decided the motor should stay in the stern mount.

After modifying the mounting plate, the motor was shifted starboard as far as it would go but the starboard turn was still restricted although adequate. The next thought was a hard link but doing so would limit the rudder throw for a starboard turn when the motor found its turn limit. Studying on this, it occurred to me that a soft link connection was ideal because it was exactly the right direction to forgive the limiting starboard motor turn and allow the rudder full movement.

It was also cheap and simple... two very nice combinations.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 18:48:22

What I've found most helpful was to teach the wife how to dock the boat. Its much easier and safer for me to handle the lines and do whats necessary to get the boat secured.

When its time to take the sails down after a days sail, I hand the tiller off to the wife and proceed to lower the sails and make fast all the lines. She makes course for the marina and by the time I have everything ship shape (sail cover on, etc.) we are approaching the slip. I stand near the rail in the cockpit as the wife motors in. I step off, make fast the forward spring, hand her the stern line from the dock to hold the boat from swinging out away from the dock while I go forward and make fast the two bow lines and as I walk back to the cockpit I make fast the aft spring.

She has learned to work the motor very well. Heck... come to think about it, she has docked this boat more than I have.

What scares me now is she has hinted around to taking some of her friends out sailing while I'm at work.

Practice, Practice, and let the wife have a few goes at it too. It gets easier.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 04/23/2007 18:52:20

John Russell
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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 18:53:12

I went out to the boat today ready to make a soft link as described. When I got there, I became uncertain of a few things. The first thing that struck me was that the trailing edge of the rudder is significantly forward of the leading edge of the motor when lowered on its mount. So, I wondered about the turning radii of the rudder vs. the motor. As Arlyn and others mentioned, this would be particularly acute in a starboard turn. I guess the good news for me is that I need to turn to port to enter the slip.

I also couldn't figure out a logical place to attach the lines/bungee on the motor. That is, without drilling holes in the aluminum (I assume) casing of the motor. There are a couple of "tabs" that could probably be drilled without negative effect.

So, I came home without a soft link installed. On the way home I pondered a while (sorry, lived in Texas) I think that I will modify the modification. I'm going to attach the starboard bungee from the motor to the motor mount. I'll attach the port side to the rudder using an extension like the one seen on Arlyn's site. Rather than attaching to the pintle when not used for steering, I'll attach the port line to the motor mount on the port side of the motorThis should serve to fix the motor straight while sailing. The starboard bungee might even give a little boost when tilting the motor up????

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/24/2007 : 00:19:40

Arlyn, right about the OB mounting. Mine wont even turn to starboard due to the OB handle. I will have to move the motor to starboard beyond the mounting plate. How could Catalina have gotten this so wrong? I'd rather have a smaller gas tank locker and a bigger opening in the transom for the motor. Heck, it's a battle tilting the Honda 9.9 up for sailing the fit is so tight! We don't trailer much so maybe I will need to get the OB mount that hangs off the transom. Can anyone verify that it allows the Hondas to turn? Can you trailer the boat with theOB still mounted on that bracket?

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/24/2007 : 05:49:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Arlyn, right about the OB mounting. Mine wont even turn to starboard due to the OB handle. I will have to move the motor to starboard beyond the mounting plate. How could Catalina have gotten this so wrong? I'd rather have a smaller gas tank locker and a bigger opening in the transom for the motor. Heck, it's a battle tilting the Honda 9.9 up for sailing the fit is so tight! We don't trailer much so maybe I will need to get the OB mount that hangs off the transom. Can anyone verify that it allows the Hondas to turn? Can you trailer the boat with theOB still mounted on that bracket?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

With the changeover to four stroke engines over the last ten years, people are finding the motor to be much larger or at least wider. I assume yours is a four. I think the Catalina design didn't account for this. Some of the newer Nissan's have gone on a diet and seem to fit fine. Something to consider next time you drool over that fat Honda 9.9 four.

Besides, real sailboats belong on a mooring!

Edited by - Turk on 04/24/2007 05:51:23

moserd
Navigator

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Response Posted - 04/24/2007 : 07:08:44

I have the Catalina outboard mount extension on my 2005 WK. I have a Mercury 8 HP 4 stroke which is much larger than my old 5 horse on my 22. I have found the extension to be very handy, no chance of the prop contacting the rudder and once I learned a few tricks have no problem putting the boat where I want it. The motor as mounted enjoys full range of motion and is not limited by contact with any parts of the boat.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/24/2007 : 09:48:49

I have a yamaha 8HP 4-stroke, and I have the Catalina motor mount. I did a lot of work at first trying to do a hard link for my setup, and decided that a soft link would be better. But I never got a round tuit. My motor can move either port or starboard to the limit of the motor mount. I have to pull my tiller up near vertical and back down again to get a full starboard turn which is a pain. Someday I will try the soft link, but I am sold on the Catalina mount.

The Catalina mount is quite beefy, I trailer with my motor mounted on it. My motor is thru bolted to the mount rather than clamped. It slows the motor ferengis down a bit I'm told...

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/24/2007 : 13:54:10

On my C-25, I installed a midship cleat on each genoa track just forward of the cockpit. I left a springline made to the cleat at the end of my finger dock. Much like Don's animation above, as I approached the dock with fenders deployed, I picked up the springline with a boat hook and dropped it on the midship cleat. Then I continued forward slowly until the springline stopped the boat, and left the engine in forward gear to hold the boat against the spring and the dock as I stepped off to secure the other lines.

When docking somewhere else, I would make a line to the midship cleat, with a fairly large loop tied into it about 5-6' back (as I recall), and run the line outside of the stanchions back to the cockpit. When entering a slip or just pulling up to a dock, I would use the boat hook to drop the loop onto a cleat, continue forward until the line became a short springline, leave the engine in gear to hold the boat against the springline and the dock, and step off. That short spring could then be adjusted after a few other lines were holding the boat to the dock--just lift the loop off and cleat the line normally.

Leaving my slip, I'd put the engine in forward gear to hold the boat against the midship springline, undo all other docklines, step aboard, shift into reverse, flip the springline off the midship cleat and onto a hook on the outer piling, and be on my way.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/24/2007 13:57:37

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/24/2007 : 21:15:23

Thanks everyone for all the good advice.

I am going to start by ordering the Catalina 250 motor bracket. Without that I really can't turn the OB at all to starboard and that is the turn I must make into the slip.

I will try the other techniques that were suggested and practice, practice, practice.

Edited by - on

Jarrett Anderson
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/25/2007 : 09:53:18

I have the motor bracket and a 8hp Yamaha 4 stroke. There is no restrictions in turning range. I was concerned that the motor would be too heavy to leave on the bracket for trailering. The dealer eased my concerns and it trailers fine. I'm sure it takes much more abuse in a heavy swell. The down side is moving that heavy motor further back on a boat that is already light in the bow. I have countered with sand bags in the bow.

Jarrett _/)

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 04/25/2007 : 14:32:37

I got my C250 end of last year. The first problem I had was docking. Exiting was ok. But I didnt think it docking would be a problem because prior to, I had been sailing a 30' and the owner just motored very easily into the slip-at the same marina I keep mine. But now I know I cant do the same. It really does depend on the winds as they usuallly cross port to starboard so I get pushed toward a seawall. Coming in at an angle is usually best and sometimes I do need to give her a little gas and not coast in.
Oh, I did see at one marine store a bow protector that uses suction cups. Not sure how good that would be but does help for those slight collisions with he dock.
Guess we all just gotta get out more and sail and practice docking. Experience helps. Once I feel I got it down, I will feel comfortable sailing alone. Not yet!!

Edited by - on

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