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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Doyle & Quantum sails

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3370 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/02/2007 : 05:44:59

I most likely will be purchasing sails locally from either Quantum which is headquartered in Annapolis, MD (about an hour or so from Wash, DC Potomac River area) or from Doyle that has a branch office also in the Annapolis area. I have checked out FX, Cruising Direct and some others and could definitely get the sails at a lower cost buying on-line or solely thru the mail but feel more comfortable going local and Quantum and Doyle are known for high quality sails. Quantum measures the dimensions themselves and will try to max out dimensions on the main sail. Doyle...well they are suppose to call me today, so i will find out their services and sail cost. Quantum uses a high grade Challenge sail matl (high aspect), whereas I have found that most sailmakers go with the next lower grade challenge matl (high modulus) or the lowest grade dacron which I believe is Challenge performance. The lower the grade, the more stretch and the lower grades, the sailmakers then cannot use the better quality stitch/yarn matl and so that also adds to stretch, whereas, Challenge High Aspect is used by Quantum with highest quality Dupont yarn for the stitching. Doyle 9similar to North) uses their own proprietary dacron matl and so...I am asking them how the weave count compares to the Challenge matls. My thought is that at least half the price difference comparing sailmaker to sailmaker has to do with what Dacron matl is being used and so...when you compare one sailmaker's cost to another and you wonder how one can be that much chaeper than the other....a lot has to do with the fact that it is not just a cost comparison...it is directly related to the matls they use and then the quality of the final product and services renedered by the sailmaker. if they come to your boat - the cost will also be higher. Catalina 25 sails are common and so many may not feel that a visit to the boat is necessary...afterall, you can buy the sails basicaly off the shelf. Anyway...those are basic differences I have come up with so far in my search and I am about to make a final decision after I talk to Doyle today and they get back to me with their quote.

Question...Anyone have experience or know others that have had experience with Quantum and/or Doyle sails ? What is the opinion about sails provided by each of these sailmakers ?

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2007 : 10:57:43

Larry,

Just curious, why are you choosing a racing fabric over the cruising fabric, which from what I can tell, is a more durable, UV resistant fabric?

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3370 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2007 : 11:44:20

All the Dacron matls I have been considering are cruising fabric. In addition, I was considering crosscut sails rather than the Tr-radial which they can also provide for cruising. FX also has tri-radial for cruising. FX sells the cruing sails in Challenge High Modulus matl. Quantum mainly sells their cruising sails in Challenge High Aspect matl which they label as "Performance Cruising". Ullman - I am not 100% sure but catalina Direct indicates it is "Performance" matl and Challenge performance is their lower grade Dacron matl. Mack sails in Florida sells cruising sails in Challenge High Aspect.

I have not really looked into the racing sails but believe they are mostly a composite matl with something like Mylar in-between.

Now we come to Doyle and their cruising sails. They call them Durasail. I talked to them earlier today. Very confusing because while I was impressed with the talk and knowledge, they did not actually tell me the details that allows me to compare the quality grade of their material. My impression is that it is proprietary information. They indicated that because I sail all year and they are familiar with my waters which is similar to the Chesapeake, they recommended a Challenge material as well but specified it with as a heavieer weight fabric and resin designated as "medium firm". i know that the resin used plays a big role in the quality of the sails besides the mesh/thread count but after I explained a number ways s that I would like to know the grade of matl so that i could compare it with other sailmakers...kept getting the weight and resin quality info but not the grade or mesh thread count that allows a comparison.

I know I am getting way deep into the weeds on this...but some things I like to research...sometimes spend more time researching things than actually using a product once I buy it. In the case of sails, though, i will be using them quite a bit.

So.....I figure Doyle is a very popular highly regarded sailmaker and perhaps would need to also evaluate them getting a warm fuzzy from those that have used them and liked the quality of their sails. though, most that generally respond to postings requesting sail mfr info seem to always get satisfied people vouching for all mfrs. I do not recall anyone that voiced UNSAT experiences with any sailmaker. I am probably not going to learn anything from making this request but thought I would ask anyway.

Doyle is going to get back to me next week around Wednesday with a quote on at least the main sail. So...this will drag on a bit longer before I throw in the towel and make a decision.

getting back to yuor question...what made you think they were racing sails ?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2007 : 12:07:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 getting back to yuor question...what made you think they were racing sails ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unless I'm misinterpreting the application chart at Challenge Sailcloth, it lists the High Aspect woven cloth under racing.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3370 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2007 : 18:20:08

You are probably right as to how Challenge lists their cloth matl. I think the difference is that a sailmaker that uses only premium cloth matls may use ChallengeHigh Aspect for their "performance cruising" sails and at the low end of their racing sails may also use Challenge High Aspect cloth. But some of the sailmakers then use the cloth differently with special attention to curvature and stress areas. The resin used may also be different for the racing sail. I saw that mentioned in the Quantum website. Most info I have read indicates that racing sails hold performance longer than Dacron cruising sails. But racing sails do not last as long as the Dacron cruising sails. I think this is generally true because many that buy racing sails by composite racing sails and they do not last as long as the Dacron sails but Dacron sails stretch way earlier in their life but last structurally much longer. I would think that one would want a Dacron quality that is less prone to stretch. The only two reasons to not get a racing sail seems to me to be extreme cost and short longevity of the sails. But at the cruising high end and racing low end...the base matl may be similar unless going the composite route.

Below is an excerpt from Mack Sails in Florida that provides some info into the grade differences. For those interested, rcmd go to their website and check out the rest of the info and history of sail cloth contained in a section labeled "sail cloth".

Excerpt from mack sails website:

"...unfortunate is that most of the brand name lofts, and the little guys too, use the not-so-good stuff for their "cruising" market - and it's difficult for the layman to tell the difference. The reason they do it is that the OEM cloths are so darn much cheaper it's very compelling.

Generally. there are four quality levels of woven "crosscut" sailcloth available to the sailmaker, including those custom woven for the really big lofts. The most popular producer of woven Dacron sailcloth, Bob Bainbridge's Challenge Sailcloth, offers four "brands" of sailcloth that is used by most sailmakers, big and small. Their price reflects their quality. For example, the popular cruising weight cloth, 8 oz. plus, in the least quality, Performance Cruise, is $9.78 per yard. The next level up is their High Modulus, which is $10.50 per yard. This High Modulus style is the most popular for practically every sailmaker's cruising sails. Challenge's premium brands are called High Aspect and Marblehead, respectively. These best styles are the only ones woven using Dupont and Allied's high tenacity yarns, type 52 and 1W70 - both warp and fill - that are the finest offered for weaving quality sailcloth, and the quality is reflected in the price. High Aspect is $14. 15 per yard, and Marblehead is $15.01.

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2007 : 07:53:09

Larry, I have a three year old main built by Doyle. It's actually a Capri 25 sail because of my modifications for a TR bimini (see Tech Tips). My only complaint is that they didn't use a headboard on it -- at the head there's a well-reinforced grommet and a webbed slide just like they used on the rest of the luff. Other than that, it's an excellently designed sail that's still stiff and holds its shape after three years.

Brooke

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3370 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2007 : 09:06:58

Brooke,

Thanks for input. Besides doing all the tech data comparison which I am trying to do, the bottom line is what people's experience has been. I am sure that no matter what sails I go with the difference will be like night and day compared to my 17 year old sails.

I am still leaning toward a semi-local sailmaker like Doyle and Quantum. I passed on North...figured I would give No.2 and No. 3 a shot instead. Also was interested in FX Sails if I was to buy on-line. They have a nice presentation/details on their website. Sails come with a 3 year warranty and they are custom sails to the detailed dimensions they have you take. Also about ~ $400 cheaper for the 2 sails than Quantum.

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.