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Tiller snapped! (photos added)

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/21/2009 : 21:12:39

Today we took some friends & their young daughters out for a short sail. The beginning of the trip was pretty uneventful, but right after we got our sails up, I was climbing back into the cockpit to take the tiller back from Rita. As I sat down, I pushed down on the tiller to get it horizontal, and as it bottomed out, the last 10" or so snapped off in my hand. I just looked at it dumbfounded, I'd just refinished it! It snapped right where the Forespar extension clicks in. Fortunately, there was plenty of tiller left to drive with, so we just kept sailing. After we got back, I took a look at the break, the wood was like sponge, it just crumbled in the fingers. I'm pretty sure the only thing holding it together was the epoxy I'd used to refinish it. Water had intruded into the interior through the screw holes & the the ferrule, and simply rotted. I'm debating what I'm going to do to fix it. I'm thinking about patching it, putting on an extension or simply building a new one. I haven't checked the rest of it yet to see if it's rotten anywhere else, so I may just have to laminate up a new one. I'll post some picturse later.

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Edited by - delliottg on 02/22/2009 15:48:07

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 07:53:45

It's amazing what water can do when it finds it's way into wood. I'm a bit anal when it comes to my boat tiller. Every year I take it off the boat, sand it down, add 4 coats of Cetol and 5 coats of clear. Even then, last year I found rot developing inside the rear most area under the metal cover bolt hole. Cleaned it all out and replaced it with epoxy mix. It is stronger than before.

In your case I think I would be looking to buy a new one at this point. I would hate to rely on that mend when a big gust arrives. They are just not that expensive.

Thanks for the heads up though, I need to be looking at that same location on mine.

Do you use a tiller cover?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 09:24:42

I agree, skip the repair and buy a replacement tiller. They're so inexpensive it's just not worth the time and effort to take a chance on effecting repairs. I can't recall exactly, but I believe a replacement tiller from H&L Marine Woodwork was something like 60-70 dollars last season for a C25 tiller.

Of all the tiller failures I've seen, virtually all were the result of water intrusion around screw holes, particularly those for tiller tamers and autopilot mounting hardware. Just this past season, a fellow sailor at my marina had a tiller snap right at a screw hole even though the tiller appeared to be in tip top condition. To lessen the chances for water intrusion, I use neoprene washers between the tiller and mounting plates, and forego screw mounted devices such as tiller tamers, hiking sticks, screw mounted autopilot or GPS brackets,...etc.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 09:57:38

My wheel C250 has a short emergency tiller that can be attached to the rudder if the wheel fails for some reason. Do the tiller 250s have a backup?

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 10:42:47

We don't have a dedicated backup, but I have a number of things on board that could be press-ganged into service as an emergency tiller. My first thought would be to lash our smaller boat pole to the stub of the broken tiller (assuming there was a stub). I've also got a tiller extension on the outboard that could be used. As it was, the tiller was only about a foot shorter than usual.

I'm thinking of laminating up a new one and taking the water intrusion to heart. I had no idea the tiller could be that fragile, I even remember flexing it in my vice, but that was side to side, not up & down. I put on three coats of West System & then four of Cetol when I refinished it.

I'll need to have at least about five holes in any new one, three mounting holes in the rear, and one each for the tiller extension & auto pilot. I'm thinking overdrill & backfill with epoxy.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 10:52:18

The emergency tiller for the wheel 250s is about 2 feet long. Perhaps the stub of your old tiller could become the new backup. It does seem like a handy item to have onboard and the backup is drilled and ready to mount.

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Turk
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 14:43:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 The emergency tiller for the wheel 250s is about 2 feet long. Perhaps the stub of your old tiller could become the new backup. It does seem like a handy item to have onboard and the backup is drilled and ready to mount.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Great idea. I'm going to buy another today and use the old one as a spare. Gawl! It's been a long winter . . . . . I'm getting punchy.

After hearing about the tiller breaking, I checked out mine closely and sure enough. I have a small soft spot on top by a screw that I didn't see while sanding and sealing.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 15:47:18

All of the dry rot seems to be in the white wood, whatever it is, ash maybe? You can see how easily it crumbles, that was about 3 seconds of flicking at it with my fingernail. The dark wood (mahagony?) seems unaffected.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 16:35:44

There is no indication of any bedding silicone or other water barriers so when the tiller extension was drilled and placed into the tiller a water catcher was also installed.
Water & wood = rot.
When I bought my boat the tiller was a grey ghost and I replaced it. There is a good tiller extender in the lazarette but I cannot bring myself to install it for just the reason you see in the pictures.
Another thread on [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19299"]single handing[/url] talks about bungee and rope tiller tamers both good ways to hold a tiller on course.
What you see in the pictures above is a great reason not to install a "Tiller Tamer"

Besides the fact they are ugly.
If you install a tiller extender I would be sure to use a silicone or other bedding material but I just can't bear to drill into my tiller. When I need to be further away from the tiller I use my prehensile toes.

Underlined words are HOT links.

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zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 16:38:19

Is that an original C250 tiller... Our '95 C250 came with an oak tiller including a cloth tiller cover

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 18:02:00

It looks just like mine, Henk. Well, except for the broken in 2 pieces part.

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zeil
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Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 18:28:50

While on the subject of things snapping... does anybody have experience with a broken rudder, pintles or gudgeons?? If so... what caused it?

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 18:33:15

I had a rudder break in half at the water line on my old 1986 C22. Those old wood-cored rudders were prone to cracks and leaking. Eventually the core rots and they break - often while under strain in a strong wind.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 20:31:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by zeil
 While on the subject of things snapping... does anybody have experience with a broken rudder, pintles or gudgeons?? If so... what caused it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You can "Search" for the many threads on this in the C-25 Forum (home of most of the older, swollen, rotten rudders). I suspect the common element with the C-250's fixed rudders is probably the stress at the lower pintle. The beaching versions are a whole different story.

Getting back to tiller rot... After the first tiller on my C-25 split (when somebody lost their balance and sat on it), on the new tiller I bought, I swabbed some varnish in the holes I drilled for the side-plates (roughly where the splitting occurred on the old one). Penetrating epoxy probably would have been better, but I didn't have it on hand at the moment. Then I bedded the plates, which also hadn't been done on the original. As John suggests, every hole is an invitation.

David: Yours is toast.

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Steve Blackburn
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1091 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 22:38:58

I have the same tiller David has and also installed a tiller extention (looks exactly like mine too, forespar). I put some varnish down the larger hole before putting in the metal insert, but didn't do anything about the 2 small screws. Now I know better. However I do store the tiller inside after every ride.

You were sailing in mid February in Seattle?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 22:59:18

You have to take your sailing dates as you can here in the PNW, especially in the winter. The weather forecast was for decent weather & wind, and our friends had never been sailing before.

Here they are at the end of the trip just before we cleared the railroad bascule bridge.

Here's why it was a good day to sail:

Love the mare's tail's in this photo.

And here are our smallest passengers. They look like little snowmen with their ski coats on over their life jackets.

All photos courtesy [url="http://www.jennifertai.net/"]Jennifer Tai Photo Artistry[/url].

Edited by - delliottg on 02/22/2009 23:01:15

Steve Blackburn
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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 23:10:27

That's just wonderful!

I almost believed you were sailing until I saw the boom lying on the cockpit floor! LOL. ;-)

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 02/22/2009 23:11:29

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 23:29:52

Oh, we were sailing before that, but the wind was starting to pick up, the kids didn't like the heeling very much, and the temperature was dropping, so we elected to head back in.

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Steve Blackburn
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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 23:53:50

[url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1283"]Deluxe C-250 African Mahogany & Ash Tiller[/url] from Catalina Direct. $119. ouch.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 02/22/2009 23:55:11

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2009 : 00:05:16

Yeah, I'm probably going to make one, I'm working on a design in my head now. In the mean time, I can use the stub if necessary, it's still plenty long, especially if I'm using the autopilot.

I have some teak I can use, but I'm not sure it's thick enough, I've also got some rock maple to laminate with it. I'll start working with CAD to figure out what I'm going to make, I want to put some custom features into it.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2009 : 00:41:43

Is the process of laminating 2 different kinds of woods (grain across grain I imagine) make it stiffer? Or is it just for show?

Tillers were made from single pieces of wood in the past. Don't know which type though.

Not to "scold" you, but did you leave the tiller outside unprotected all the time? Or was this just from the occasional splash?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 02/23/2009 00:42:54

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2009 : 01:04:45

Actually lamination makes it easier to bend the tiller to the shape you need. You could also steam the wood (as in a single piece) to bend it, but I don't have a steam box, although it wouldn't be too hard to make one. A lamination is also stronger than a solid piece, and it removes or reduces inherent weaknesses in the wood since any imperfections are limited by the depth of the lamination, the next layer won't have that same imperfection, so strength is enhanced.

My tiller is exposed, which is the reason I did the three layers of epoxy & four of Cetol, to protect it. I figured on a couple layers of Cetol each year to keep it in condition. While it was exposed, I didn't feel it necessary to protect more than I thought I had. There was minor delamination on the very tip of the tiller, but I cut that back & fixed it with epoxy.

I've been thinking about what might have caused the weakness. I wonder how much damage would be caused by ice expansion inside the wood cells, a lot I'd imagine. Who knows, maybe I accelerated the damage by sealing the tiller so well by trapping water inside during the refinish process. Certainly the boat's been through a number of freeze/thaw cycles this winter.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/23/2009 : 10:32:50

So David, is your marina near the West Seattle Bridge? Our daughter went to college in Seattle and we crossed that bridge many times to eat at Salty's.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2009 : 10:41:11

Yep, if you stood on verge of the eastbound lane, you could pretty easily toss a rock onto our deck, but try to hit one of the derelicts south or east of us instead.

[url="http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=113410289865331465424.000001136417780cb2a5c&t=h&z=18"]Jim Clark Marina[/url] We're the red pushpin.

Edited by - delliottg on 02/23/2009 11:20:04

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2009 : 12:00:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 I almost believed you were sailing until I saw the boom lying on the cockpit floor!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Two words...topping lift!

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/23/2009 : 12:32:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 I almost believed you were sailing until I saw the boom lying on the cockpit floor!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Two words...topping lift!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

One word. Boomkicker!

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