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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Tow vehicles

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/07/2009 : 10:25:57

Consumer Reports mag arrived yesterday; includes an article comparing Ford F150 XLT, Dodge Ram 1500 SLT, and Chevy Silverado 1500 SL, all crew cabs. Performance from all 3 was very close. On towing:
Ford - 5.4L V8 - "The F150 pulled our 6,400 lb test trailer to 60 mph in 16 seconds, a strong performance."
Dodge - 5.7L V8 - "It pulled our 6,400 lb test trailer to 60 mph in 15.4 seconds, a very good performance. Braking was impressive."
Chevy - 5.3L V8 - The silverado pulled our 6,400 lb test trailer to 60 mph in 16 seconds, a very good time. stopping distances were a bit long in both wet and dry."
Expect MPG of about 10/19 (city/hwy) with avg of 14 for all 3 trucks.
Turning radius for all 3 was about 50 ft.
Dodge had the shortest wheelbase at 140", Ford 145", Chevy 144".
One interesting note: the 20" wheel option on the Dodge reduces towing capacity by 1,000 lbs.
Also interesting: Ford and Chevy received the "Recommended" award, but Dodge did not. In the write-ups, the Dodge seemed to have fewer negative comments. Must be due to the uncertainty over Chrysler's future.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/07/2009 10:29:54

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 : 16:21:28

What's the max trailer weight for that F150? My C250 on trailer weighs in at 6800lbs. Plus, time to 60MPH is interesting but what it the time/distance from 60MPH to stop??

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/07/2009 16:21:54

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 : 16:54:07

Ford F150 XLT Supercrew model: Payload 3,030 lbs, "...best in class towing capacity up to 11,300...", according to carpricesecrets.com.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/07/2009 16:59:14

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2009 : 16:45:07

Wow - all that out of an F-150!! I don't think those are the brochure numbers, are they?

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2009 : 18:00:02

There is only one way to accurately figure cargo capacity and tow capacity:

Cargo capacity: Look at the Tire and Loading Information sticker on the left rear door panel or in that area...it will list the cargo capacity for THAT vehicle to the nearest one pound.

Tow capacity: GCWR minus the weight of the tow vehicle when ready to tow equals tow capacity.

Ignore brochures and internet figures...they are published to make the vehicle look as good as possible.

Edited by - At Ease on 04/09/2009 18:01:14

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2009 : 21:33:24

According to "The Trailer Guys" in Boat/US Trailering magazine, the closest I come to an "expert" resource, "Stay within the manufacturer's tow rating and you will be fine." I don't believe any of us come close to understanding the full dynamics of a vehicle+tow, so we should just follow the rules and be more conservative if we choose.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2009 : 22:26:36

Towing weight is just a piece of the equation... The length of the trailer from tongue to axles is another, and the longer that lever arm is, the longer you want the tow vehicle wheelbase to be. Stopping distance is a useful indication, but there's no such thing as an emergency stop with a loaded 25' sailboat behind you. You need plenty of room, and an escape route from trouble (the shoulder or whatever). Above all, you need directional control, and only wheelbase gives you that. SUV's shorter than a Suburban (which pretty much means all of them), towing a 25' Catalina above 40 mph, are a danger to everyone on the road. And before anyone asks why a Freightliner has such a short wheelbase compared to its trailer, I'll ask whether they'e seen, up close and personal, a big rig doing a panic stop and then jackknifing and going over. I have. I'm happy to be alive.

Resident curmudgeon out.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2009 : 01:46:23

My 2004 F150, Supercrew is rated at 9800 lbs. She`s a tuff little bugger and drives very well.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 04/10/2009 01:46:59

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2009 : 06:40:22

I find the secret component in the towing formula to be... Tow in Kansas, it is flat, all roads are straight, and there is nothing to hit if you do loose it. I never felt the least bit "in too deep" with my little Mountaineer (my 2000 was still based on the Ranger) . I will never understand the idea of a pick up as a tow vehicle, I consider the bed to be wasted space as a tow vehicle. I have always said the Suburban 3/4 ton is the perfect tow vehicle for a sailor and I own a reasonable alternative to it, an E-150 van The van has zero wasted space, anything I want to carry inside can be inside instead of outside in the bed of a truck. SO I don't understand the fascination... fixation, on pick'm ups. Of course now I could tow my boat with a yard tractor.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2009 : 13:55:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 SO I don't understand the fascination... fixation, on pick'm ups.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Most don't have the luxury of owning a vehicle for one specific purpose such as towing a boat twice a year. My pickup is also used to haul compost/dirt/woodchips/sod/concrete. It's used to haul around my snowblower in the winter to those in need and a lawnmower in the summer. It's also used to haul items that I don't particularly care to have on the interior of a vehicle such as gas cans.

I've never had a reason to ask anyone if I could borrow their SUV/van, but I've sure had many people, including SUV/van owners, ask me if they could use my truck.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2009 : 14:00:05

For towing a Catalina 25, I'd want a 3/4 or 1-ton truck, not a 1/2 ton as were the trucks in the magazine review. My C-25 and trailer weigh 7500 pounds, and while an F-150 "properly equipped" could theoretically pull that load safely on flat terrain, I would not want to climb over mountains with one. Taking Ford as an example, the differences in the chassis and running gear between the F-150 and F-350 are substantial: the cooling systems for the engine and transmission, the brakes, frame rails, axles, driveshaft, suspension components...all are heavier, thicker, and stronger. Brakes are especially important. When you are descending a mountain pass like Siskiyou Summit (on I-5 at the California/Oregon border), you are facing 7 miles of 6% to 7% continuous downgrades. You better have brakes that can absorb a LOT of heating without "cooking out". I have towed my various sailboats (including two Catalina 25's, #1205 and #5857) at least 10,000 miles, and have come to the firm conclusion that the best overall tow vehicle for a Catalina 25 is a 3/4 or 1-ton pickup with a diesel engine and MANUAL transmission. I am partial to the Dodge because the Cummins in-line 6 cylinder engine is a little easier to work on than the V-8 diesels in the Ford and Chevy, but whatever brand of truck you might be loyal to, the diesel option with manual transmission is the way to go if you are towing something as big as a Catalina 25. The diesel engine will stand up to heavy towing in hot summer weather better than a gasoline engine, and get at least 20 to 30 percent better fuel economy. The 6-speed manual transmissions that are standard on all these trucks don't generate nearly as much heat as an automatic, since there's no torque converter, and I would expect to get at least double the service life out of a manual transmission before it wears out. The one possible exception is the Allison automatic transmission in the Chevy - it was supposedly designed from the ground up for extreme heavy duty towing behind a high-torque diesel engine. But I don't own one so can't camment from personal experience.
Pulling "Quiet Time" out of the water at Folsom Lake Marina's 15% slope launch ramp with my Dodge Cummins 5-speed is a breeze. Just put the tranny in first gear and let the clutch in at the same moment as letting off the brakes. No need to even touch the accelerator pedal. The engine computer will sense the load and maintain enough fuel injection for 850 RPM. The truck just gently pulls the boat out of the water and goes up the ramp at idle speed as if the 7500# load wasn't even there. I see plenty of people at our launch ramp pulling water ski boats that weigh 1/2 as much as "Quiet Time", and they have to rev their gas engine, automatic transmission trucks to 3000rpm to do it, with rear tires squealing.
The newer Dodge Cummins is actually better at this than my '98, given that the engine displacement is 6.7 liters compared to 5.7 liters on my older truck. Also, the new 6-speed has a slightly "lower" first gear than my 5-speed, for even more "grunt" on those launch ramps.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2009 : 15:37:34

I will never understand the idea of a pick up as a tow vehicle,

Women love a pickup man.

Edited by - on

Oksky
1st Mate

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Canada
40 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2009 : 10:11:43

Well this is how I tow my boat. Perhaps over kill but nice when you need it.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2009 : 11:49:34

Get what fits your needs. The "Trailer Guys" at boat/US do trailers for a living, so I'm inclined to go along with them. I tow just over 2000 miles a year and carry people a lot more often than stuff. Bigger and heavier duty is always better for towing, but it would be senseless for me to drive a nitogen oxide, carbon monoxide, and particulate carbon spewing heavy duty diesel for the 20,000 miles a year that I don't need it. Even though a $25,000 stereo (yes, they are out there) reproduces music better than a cheap one, a Bose Sound Dock and Ipod are adequate for my 64 year old ears. Nothing raises hackles more than tow vehicles, except possibly outboard brands. Remember, no matter how adamately presented, these are Opinions; get facts from the spec sheet.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2009 : 12:45:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Remember, no matter how adamately presented, these are Opinions; get facts from the spec sheet.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree. Spec sheets, internet figures, brochures, etc are all tailored to show a particular vehicle in the best light. As an example, all of the big three like to tout their 3/4 ton trucks as having payloads in excess of 3,000#. What they don't tell you is that a payload that high is available only in gas trucks...when you subtract the heavy weight of a diesel engine and the associated transmission, you can reduce that payload by nearly 1,000#.

I made an earlier post as to where you can locate the true weight limits...Cargo Capacity is on the Tire and Loading information sticker and tow capacity is the GCWR (from that vehicle's manual) minus the tow vehicle's actual weight.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2009 : 13:19:21

There is no question that when it comes to towing that bigger is better. The issue most of us face is a financial one when considering a tow vehicle. Factors are Vehicle purchase cost, maintenance, fuel consumption, application (hills, mountains, distance) and the secondary use (other than towing the boat). In my case the F150 becomes the second car and used for this reason 95% of the time (probably closer to 99%). So I wanted to keep the running costs down as much as possible. I could have purchase a 250 or 350 for the same price, but they would have cost way more in fuel costs for the 95% of the time we use it. I also tow a Water Ballast which comes to about 5500 pounds with boat, trailer and equipment.

There really is no single correct answer. It depends on numerous factors.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2009 : 23:45:34

I don't think it is really a disagreement. I inappropriately used "spec sheet" as a generic term. As you noted, specs are for a specifically equipped vehicle and will be on that plate on the door. Advertising brochures are definately based on an optimally equipped vehicle, and most internet sites and magazines just repeat that source.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2009 : 10:29:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by At Ease
 Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree. Spec sheets, internet figures, brochures, etc are all tailored to show a particular vehicle in the best light. As an example, all of the big three like to tout their 3/4 ton trucks as having payloads in excess of 3,000#.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I always thought a 3/4 ton truck was one with a payload of, or somewhat above, 1,500lbs (3/4 ton)? No?

Here's something from Motor Trend's Truck Trend...


Pickup makers have been cheating, and we've been misled. For years, manufacturers have given their vehicles a maximum payload number, meaning the total amount of weight it can carry. This number is calculated by taking the actual weight of the truck and subtracting it from the manufacturer's specified gross vehicle weight rating. By calculating this simple math problem, the unibody Honda Ridgeline ends up having more payload capacity (1510 pounds) than the heavy-duty Dodge Ram Mega Cab (1500 pounds).

However, this does need some explanation. Honda engineers knew they had to submit the maximum payload number specification, so they tested for maximum carrying capacity and certified the results. The problem is that it ignores the commonly understood (yet unspoken) practice of understating the maximum payload number. Pickup experts know that truck buyers will use the "maximum" number only as a starting point and most likely add more (if not a few full-size passengers as well). The result is that our Ram Mega Cab, with its maximum payload of 1500 pounds, didn't show much strain when fully loaded; however, with the Ridgeline at its 1510-pound limit, the rear coil springs were almost fully compressed, and we were shooting the headlights at the sky. Without specific definitions for "maximum," manufacturers can name the number they'd like. Right now, especially with heavy-duty pickups, the onus is on the truck buyer to figure out how far over or under they can go when loading their truck.

Edited by - on

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