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Need Help - Water Leak and Need Advice

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Kper
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417 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/03/2015 : 15:46:45

We finally launched today... better late than never, eh?... and discovered that I must have broken something loose when I removed the keel winch assembly earlier last month. In the photo I marked a line in ink where the cable tube is leaking (seeping - about a cup every 4 hours). I also discovered that where I have it marked I can pivot the portion above the line about a quarter inch while the portion below the line holds fast.

My question is, is there a connection of some sort inside there and all the bulkiness is a previous repair? Or do I have a serious fiberglass issue and need to start over?

I was advised to remove some of whats there and re-fiberglass over the area and I'd be fine. I even had one person tell me to slather some boat caulk on it and I'd be fine - I'm NOT "slathering" caulk on it. Either way, I put the boat back on the trailer and I'm waiting for advice from the forum before attempting any repairs.

I"m hoping it's somewhat minor so I can be back in the water this weekend.

Thanks everyone.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Edited by - Kper on 08/03/2015 15:49:00

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2015 : 12:32:29

At this point I'm just going to guess it's a tube of some sort glassed into the trunk for the hose attachment.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

NautiC25
Admiral

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957 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2015 : 13:31:17

JB-Weld! :)

1989 C-25 TR/WK #5894
Miss Behavin'
Sittin' in LCYC on Canyon Lake, Texas

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2015 : 13:54:19

My boat wasn't a swing keel, but isn't that the tube that the keel cable runs through? If so, I believe it is situated at or near the waterline. Whenever you see double clamps on a hose on a boat, that usually means that, if the hose comes loose, the boat might sink. I would suggest you not treat it casually, but instead, remove the broken piece, and re-form the tube, reinforcing it with a couple layers of glass cloth.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Merrick
Navigator

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192 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2015 : 14:33:55

There is a copper tube at the top of the fiberglass that holds the turning ball. Consider that Catalina Direct says:

"1) When you consider that, if the installation of a new Keel Cable Tube fails your boat will sink, we highly recommend you have a boat yard perform the installation unless you are intimately familiar with fiberglass repair and qualified to perform this installation."

So if the copper tube is solid, you should be ok re-glassing around it, but if the copper tube is loose make sure you know what you are doing or get some help.

1981 #2555 "Aero"
sk/sr
Coosaw Island, SC

Kper
Captain

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Response Posted - 08/04/2015 : 17:21:11

Great.
Since the top inch and a half was stuck firm to the tube I was hoping I could prep the surface and glass the entire area.

Not such a good idea, eh?

Edit: I should correct that by saying the top inch and a half below the clamps appear to be stuck firm. Obviously the portion of the tube with the clamps appears to be holding firm.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Edited by - Kper on 08/04/2015 17:29:56

Kper
Captain

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Response Posted - 08/04/2015 : 18:46:36

Is anyone familiar enough with the West System products to give me some advice on which filler they might recommend? Or should I simply glass in some matting over the broadest area possible after a bit of surface prep?

I have some glassing experience although it's been years.... like, 30 years.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2015 : 18:55:54

quote:
Originally posted by Merrick

There is a copper tube at the top of the fiberglass that holds the turning ball...

I am really taking to heart what Steve said and now I'm wondering where the turning ball is? Is this accessible from above or below the hull? I don't see any hint of this ball assembly from above.

If I continue to second guess my decision to proceed I'll want to locate the pin/ball and check/replace them while I'm there unless it's replace from the bottom.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2015 : 08:22:48

I believe I have discovered that my thru hull has been modified so I will close this thread and open a new one with a different objective.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Merrick
Navigator

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192 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2015 : 12:40:39

you slip the white pvc tube off , then unclamp the black hose and remove it and you will see the copper tube. From the picture it looks like normal factory set up. Only do this on the trailer , never in the water.

1981 #2555 "Aero"
sk/sr
Coosaw Island, SC

Merrick
Navigator

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192 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2015 : 13:19:39

This is what it looks like.

1981 #2555 "Aero"
sk/sr
Coosaw Island, SC

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2015 : 13:35:15

Thank you!!

So, the hose covers the pin that holds the ball in place and the upper portion of the tube that is rotating must be the brass tube rotating in the threaded hull?

If I am correct, then all I should have to do is either:
1) Ensure the tube is tight in the hull and apply glass reinforcement.
...or...
2) Remove the tube, reseal the threads, tighten tube into hull and re-glass the area.

I'd prefer 1 but would like input. My window or opportunity to get this repaired this year is closing.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Edited by - Kper on 08/05/2015 13:37:02

jduck00
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Response Posted - 08/05/2015 : 14:59:37

The tube was loose on mine when I bought it. It has threads on the bottom. I believe they are tapered like a pipe thread. It took a bit of initial force, but I did get it to unthread. I cleaned it all up and put it back together with 4200. I've never had a problem with it since then.

If it was my boat, I would pull and unthread the tube to check why its loose. The glass volcano on mine fit fairly snug around the tube, but it wasn't really solid until I tightened it down. It the tube is loose around the threads, I think that glassing or sealing the top will just be a band-aid. The turning ball has a lot of force applied to it when lifting \ lowering the keel. I don't see the top of the volcano being able to stabilize that.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2015 : 16:31:00

I suppose my next question would be... if it's leaking in the area of the threads, can't see because it's glassed over, and the tube is loose then it's fairly safe to assume that the leak is coming from the threads themselves and not leaking "around" some molded-in brass fitting, then it's probably the threads and removing and re-sealing the threads should do the trick. Then I can re-glass the tube for more support.

Would this be a sound plan of attack?

I could put a new hardware kit in at the same time.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2015 : 07:01:32

Heading to the marina to start taking things apart. Wish me luck.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

jduck00
Captain

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Response Posted - 08/07/2015 : 10:04:44

The threads are at the hull. I would start there first. If they are sealed properly, there wont be any water to leak.

I didn't have to glass mine in. I gooped 4200 everywhere and tightened down. It was solid after that.

(Edit) I forgot about the part where the top of your volcano was cracked. So yes, reseal the tube and then do a little glass work on the volcano. It shouldn't leak after you get it sealed, but can't hurt to reinforce whats there.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Edited by - jduck00 on 08/07/2015 12:39:31

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2015 : 13:43:38

I was able to get the tube out but it fought me. I was afraid I'd oblong the tube but had no choice but to put a pipe wrench on it and ease it out as best as I could. Once I had it out I thought I would apply West Systems 4000 on it (no 4200 available) and reinstall it but discovered a discrepancy after inspecting the tube. Turns out the hole for the pin is within an inch or so from the top and the replacement is an inch and a half from the bottom. I called CD and he said he's never heard of one like that with the ball positioned so far up, but we all know the crazy stuff that took place at the factory. He also recommended the WS epoxy repair kit. I have access to the WS 105 repair pack which is also an epoxy repair kit but I'm not sure if I should epoxy it in place. Opinions? I have decided to go with the new tube and trim the volcano down the necessary couple inches to have access to the pin. The glass is pretty thin in that area (see photo in opening post) so I'm not overly concerned.

Opinions on the sealant I should use on the threads and the mating surface between the volcano and the tube?

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2015 : 14:42:23

New Tube from CD....

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

jduck00
Captain

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313 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2015 : 15:28:35

Besides, the wrench marks did you damage the tube? I've got an 80 model hull and my tube is just like yours with the turning ball at the top.

Don't know if you have a machine shop nearby, but it wouldn't be a hard job to have a tube built that would fit perfectly. I believe its just a bronze pipe with threads and two holes. I did a quick search but couldn't find much for available tubing stock. I guess you could always try and get one without the turning ball holes and take it to the machine shop.

The West repair kits are the same epoxy fiberglass that you get in the larger containers. Good stuff.

If you epoxy it in, it will be good for another 30 years. I don't see any reason not to. Just get the fit right before you commit and break out the epoxy.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2015 : 18:48:27

quote:
Originally posted by jduck00

Besides, the wrench marks did you damage the tube? I've got an 80 model hull and my tube is just like yours with the turning ball at the top.

I may have oblonged it a bit, at least enough to not feel comfortable with it. I also noticed the groove at the top which hinted to me that maybe having the ball lower might help eliminate that happening again... maybe not.
I'd try the machine shop route if I thought we had one who could help me out in a timely fashion and as busy as we have been lately I simply ordered a new one. I'll trim the volcano and and hope for the best.
By the way, the ball was in great shape and the cable looked very good but, not knowing when it was last changed I also ordered a new cable.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Edited by - Kper on 08/07/2015 18:49:50

WesAllen
Navigator

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Response Posted - 08/08/2015 : 07:41:23

I have an 82 and my turning ball is at the top just like yours and I'm pretty sure that it came that way. I don't think that I would cut the volcano down any. Although after thinking it over, having the turning ball down farther would probably be better for the cable and the bottom of the tube (but I am far from being an engineer). On mine the hose and clamps hold the pin from coming out.

Wes

Wesley Allen
"Breaking Wind"
1982 C-25 SR/TR/SK #2773
Hemlock, MI

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2015 : 09:35:24

Wes, mine is just as you described. I would prefer to leave it as it was from the factory but I have 2 reasons why I am going with the new tube. First, and most obvious, is I don't trust that my old tube is round any longer and just in case I can't get a good seal on the threads I want to have some extra sealant along the tube. The second is I can't help but think that the leverage on the tube is greater with the ball at the top. The second reason alone wouldn't justify me replacing the tube but since I sorta jacked it up taking it out and I don't have a good machine shop within an hour and a half to copy my old one, I'm left with getting a new one from CD.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

clark1962
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 08/08/2015 : 13:55:46

The turning ball is at the top of the tube so the hose & clamps will cover the ball pin holes. If they are not under the clamp & hose I believe it will leak around the pin. Mine also is at the top of the tube

1983, SK TR

Kper
Captain

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417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2015 : 15:44:29

quote:
Originally posted by clark1962

The turning ball is at the top of the tube so the hose & clamps will cover the ball pin holes.....

Which is why I'd have to trim the volcano. When the new one comes in I'll compare and make my decision at that time.
I will say, however, I prefer the ball at the top... makes ball replacement much easier I would think.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Merrick
Navigator

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Response Posted - 08/08/2015 : 18:01:50

My turning ball is at the top also. I would re-install with sealant on inside and epoxy around outside with some cloth. There is some pressure on that tube from the cable and it needs to be solid. Clean the area of old fiberglass that the epoxy will adhere to first and sand it. 5200 sealant would also be ok since this is a pretty permanent connection. Pretty much as stated above.

1981 #2555 "Aero"
sk/sr
Coosaw Island, SC

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 08/08/2015 : 20:23:34

I would only say that if you epoxy, 5200, or even 4200 it that you better not ever have to address it again. The volcano was bad idea of convenience to begin with.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 08/08/2015 20:26:27

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