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Jib sheet cam cleats

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/05/2015 : 08:05:20

On Passage I believe Dave Stinkpotter added a set of Cam Cleats to the gunwales next to the winches. I always use them, never use the winches at all. Recently I've noticed the lines slip in strong winds or on a close reach unless I angle the sheets at an odd pitch to make it stay. It seems that the teeth have dulled on the cleats. Anybody know if replacements are available?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Bladeswell
Captain

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490 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2015 : 12:32:06

Hi Voyager,

Everyone makes cam cleats, Harkin, garhouer and many others. They are readily available from CD,WM or other suppliers. However, I have a question. Maybe I just haven't had enough experience with worn or older cam cleats, but by their design I didn't know they could slip. On my boat, I have Jam Cleats and I am not happy with them at all as they seem to slip very easily.
My own plan was to upgrade them all to Cam Cleats and at the cabin top, I am considering Rope Clutches for securing halyards. Though the latter would be much more expensive. I will be watching your thread for others responses. Best of luck and good sailing.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2015 : 07:18:59

Hi BW,
I didn't know they could slip either but I see the business end of the teeth are worn. I'd prefer to replace the jaws rather that the entire assembly because they're solidly bedded and secure.
Jam cleats - are they mounted on your gunwales for your jib sheets? In my experience the jam cleats have to closely match your rope / line size or it'll either slip or never grab in the first place. Even if you have the correct match, over time the teeth can dull like my cams.
I use a jam cleat for my mainsail outhaul. I just set it and forget it (except on drifter days). While they allow adjustments over time - IMHO - the jam cleat isn't as amenable to constant adjustments as a cam cleat.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2015 : 11:12:47

I don't think I ever routed the sheets directly to those cam cleats. I did at least one wrap on the winch, slipped the sheet under one horn of the horn cleat, and then snapped it into the cam. The purpose of the horn cleat and the position of the cam cleat relative to it was intended to let the horn keep the angle low into the cam--coming directly off the winch would make an upward angle that would try to pull the sheet out of the cam. (Risers under the cams could have accomplished somewhat the same objective.)

I preferred the wrap on the winch to make it easier to ease the sheet under significant load, as when shaping the genoa on a reach. I think it also helped prevent the opposite problem from yours--tension causing the cams to tighten so much the sheet could hardly be pulled up and out of the cleat. But maybe you're stronger than I ever was!

One other thought: The sheets that were on that sail when I bought Passage were 1/2", as I recall... Although I thought about replacing them, I chose cam cleats that matched to that size. If you've downsized, maybe you have a slight mis-match.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3312 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2015 : 11:24:42

IMHO and that of my original expert crew, Ronstan makes the best cam cleat (and it is less expensive than Harken etc.). Put a riser under them and you have the correct sheeting angle. And yes, the teeth do wear over time (years).

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2015 : 17:19:22

A possible quick fix might be to wash the sheets. I'm guessing you have the fuzzy single braid just because Dave likes them and so do I. Could be the lines are dirty and full of salt that washing would rejuvenate the fuzz making the lines grip better. I know my lines work/grip/handle better when they are clean. Reminds me to bring home my main sheet and give it a wash, It's stiff as a board.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2015 : 17:32:02

Dave
I see - there are lots of options- the winch, the horn cleat and the cams. I'll give your approach a try.
I also removed the 1/2 line and went with 3/8" or 7/16". After a season or two, I went back to the 1/2" - it was much easier on the hands.
Yes Scott - washing the sheets make them more pliable- add fabric softener and it's a dream!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Bladeswell
Captain

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490 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2015 : 20:02:41

Hello again,

My jam cleats are mounted on the gunnells aft of the sheet winches. I think they are the right size for 3/8 line but I just don't like them for securing sheets. Maybe its just me. As I stated earlier, I wasn't aware that cam cleats could slip with age and wear. Glad to learn something new which is a regular occurrence here for me.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2015 : 19:36:26

A wrap or two on the winch takes a lot of load off the cleat. My sheets go to jam cleats, really quick, reliable and easy.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2015 : 03:44:14

make sure they are snapping shut with enough force. the springs get weak or they get dirty. And yes, the "teeth" can wear. I had to wash the dirt out of my mainsheet camcleat before it would close properly.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2015 : 05:15:04

Re: "a wrap around the winches"
went out yesterday morning and we encountered strong 12kt SWerlies on the Sound with breaking seas - just the kind of conditions I was talking about.
I took one wrap on each winch and cleated the new sheet as we tacked upwind to our local island. Each time I came about the old sheet hung on the winch and I ended up backwinding the jib time and again. So then each time I prepared to come about I had to release the old sheet from the cleat and the winch.
In lively conditions with 2ft breakers I was a little distracted, so anything that could go wrong did.
It helped the lines grip for sure but added a different step which kind of threw off my rhythm. Hmmm

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2015 : 05:36:28

With my self tailers when tacking I always uncoil the line from the winch. If I leave a coil on it the results will be as you describe. Still to much friction for the sail to come over smoothly. Yesterday was a 10 for us, Nice SW wind all day. Been rare this summer not having to wait until late afternoon for wind. Being I'm farther west than you and the Sound isn't as wide we didn't have the breakers, just an few white caps.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/08/2015 05:40:35

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2015 : 05:48:07

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

Re: "a wrap around the winches"
went out yesterday morning and we encountered strong 12kt SWerlies on the Sound with breaking seas - just the kind of conditions I was talking about.
I took one wrap on each winch and cleated the new sheet as we tacked upwind to our local island. Each time I came about the old sheet hung on the winch and I ended up backwinding the jib time and again. So then each time I prepared to come about I had to release the old sheet from the cleat and the winch.
In lively conditions with 2ft breakers I was a little distracted, so anything that could go wrong did.
It helped the lines grip for sure but added a different step which kind of threw off my rhythm. Hmmm

In 10-12 kt winds, I put at least 2 wraps on the winch and sometimes 3. One wrap isn't enough for the line to grip the winch so that it won't slip under load. When the line is heavily loaded and you want to add tension to the jibsheet, it slips on the winch.

When you tack, you should not just release the line from the cleat, but you should always completely remove it from the winch. You can usually do that effectively by holding the line between your forefinger and thumb and raise your hand directly above the winch. Of course, remove the winch handle from the loaded winch, put 2 wraps on the new winch, and put the winch handle in the new winch before you start the tack. By doing that, you can release and unwrap the working jibsheet, and then reach across the cockpit to take hold of the new jibsheet and begin tailing and grinding it in right away, without having to hurriedly put wraps on the new winch and stick in the winch handle. Generally, the more actions you can get done before you start the maneuver, the easier it is to do.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3312 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2015 : 10:16:08

I agree with Steve about pre-preparation for a tack. I always had the crew, as soon as we were settled on a new tack, prepare the other (now "lazy") winch with 2 wraps and a winch handle.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2015 : 11:00:31

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

...I took one wrap on each winch and cleated the new sheet as we tacked upwind to our local island. Each time I came about the old sheet hung on the winch and I ended up backwinding the jib time and again. So then each time I prepared to come about I had to release the old sheet from the cleat and the winch...

Yup--that's the standard process. And then as Steve and Derek suggest, after the tack, we put raps on the windward winch to prepare for the next tack. That might help you find your new rhythm.

BTW, when I said "at least one wrap", I meant one in only the lightest air.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2015 : 04:48:50

clam (brand)

cam

jam

horn

C&C 32 Smith Mountain Lake Virginia

Edited by - shnool on 09/09/2015 04:50:32

cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2015 : 08:17:57

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

I agree with Steve about pre-preparation for a tack. I always had the crew, as soon as we were settled on a new tack, prepare the other (now "lazy") winch with 2 wraps and a winch handle.

Hi Derek!
We do the same thing, but wait on the winch handle if its blowing, since we'll add a couple of wraps after manually pulling in as much slack as possible (helps avoid overwraps for us)

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2015 : 08:23:27

quote:
Originally posted by shnool
jam

We use "Jam" cleats for the jib sheets similar to these. However they are metal, and look like a horn cleat (two equal length horns) except the base forms a "jam" shape on one side. Two wraps round and round and the sheet is secure, and is easily and quickly removed. And they still allow you to use the cleats with a cleat hitch to secure lines not needed to be quickly released.

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2015 : 17:23:35

Wow! I've been working too hard! No wonder my biceps are looking buff!!!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

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