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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Keel winch, cable tube, ball, and what sealant

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yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/26/2018 : 08:27:29

Hello,

I replaced the winch on my 86 with a new winch from CD. The mount holes line up, the winch more or less lines up, and the cable feeds the same direction so those are good things but the face plate will need some adjustment for the hole to line up. That's not a big deal, I just found it strange. I do feel that the bolts provided were about an inch too short and I wound up reusing the original bolts which were approximately two inches longer. I like threads when I'm hauling a Volkswagen around under my boat.

Whilst removing the cable (I'm on my trailer so retracted) from the winch, I decided to inspect the turning ball which meant removing the black flexible tube from the volcano tube by way of two SS radiator-style clamps. It felt like a light coat of adhesive/sealant was present when I twisted it loose.

Do you need to add sealant when replacing the black tube at the base and clamping it back down?

Re: Turning ball. There was a small wear patch, small enough that I returned it to service but I'll note it in my logs. I have a picture if anyone is curious or wants to warn me of something important.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/g7A3n7OFoi8jjbU12
I also tried and was pleasantly surprised at the amount of visual I gained with a cell phone and DSLR down the tube to see the eye bolt condition. My trailer bunks are low enough that the boat's keel is certainly carrying substantial weight. Something I need to rectify this year after haul in. Calkin trailer appears to be readily adjustable. Is there a preference for height? I presume enough that the boat is only on the bunks and then the keel is lowered a turn or two to take tension off and distribute weight.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3yfhfwqw431zraKw2

What I could not get a good photo of was the pivot pin which is my primary concern.

Old winch (slips unexpectedly, not a good feature):
https://photos.app.goo.gl/6jIjVtP3Bb2Guj2e2

Guess it would be easier to just put these in an album.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CsJng1nxuqxycwBZ2

So, after all of that, my question was if I should and what kind (5200?) of sealant to use at the base of the black keel guide tube when it snugs onto the volcano tube and then secures with two SS radiator-style clamps please.

Thanks,

Carl

Edited by - yachtsea on 04/26/2018 11:02:08

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2018 : 10:39:49

quote:
Originally posted by yachtsea

...My trailer bunks are low enough that the boat's keel is certainly carrying substantial weight. Something I need to rectify this year after haul in. Calkin trailer appears to be readily adjustable. Is there a preference for height? I presume enough that the boat is only on the bunks and then the keel is lowered a turn or two to take tension off and distribute weight.

You presume correctly. The keel should be carrying none of the hull's weight, since that transfers the weight to a very small area of the fiberglass trunk that was not designed to carry it. You should be able to lower the keel just a little onto a "rest" on the trailer after hauling out. If you're taking her on the road, I'd do anything I could to rectify that before subjecting her to any road shocks.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/26/2018 10:40:42

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2018 : 11:24:36

quote:
Originally posted by yachtsea

...So, after all of that, my question was if I should and what kind (5200?) of sealant to use at the base of the black keel guide tube when it snugs onto the volcano tube and then secures with two SS radiator-style clamps please.

Probably not a bad idea, but use anything but 5200--that would make the next hose replacement difficult. I'll suggest Boatlife Life Seal, which is compatible with plastics (not knowing exactly what the hose will be).

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2018 : 13:29:11

2 hose clamps should be sufficient. The water is not under pressure. I would be Leary of any sealent that could soften the hose. The hose probably was a little stuck just from years of being clamped. You ever removed a radiator hose from a car? They are always stuck and need a little persuasion.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2018 : 17:10:52

Hi Carl,
We've had a swinger for 13 years...and I can share a few things; Dave is right about the boat weight resting on the keel. Our bilge was dry as the desert until launching about year 10 years ago, water was coming into the bilge at a rate of about 3 gallons per 24 hours, which was pretty confusing as she had been on the hard, on blocks and stands...what changed???

We could not find the leak, took out EVERYTHING and no luck. So we did a short haul and while hanging from the slings, put water into the bilge (kinda counter intuitive - but it worked) water was coming from the keel trunk, right at the location where the lift cable bracket connects to the keel. I surmise that when storing the boat in the Fall, the yard bounced her a bit and that was enough to put a crack/hole. It was an easy glass repair and has held just fine, but we now store her with the keel lowered about 12", which allows for an annual inspection of the hardware, and prevents the hull from bouncing on the keel again...

Also, I change the lift cable and ball every two years as recommended for preventive maintenance (salt water...) and change the winch and hose every 5 years. I also actually put some lubricant around the volcano, not adhesive. As mentioned, the water is not under pressure and the lubricant makes the swap easier.

LASTLY - it is important that the new cable is not spiraled around itself when installed. I am not explaining it well, but the cable has a natural coil and the individual steel strands are wrapped around the core. It is best to install the new cable beginning at the winch end, with the cable laid out on the ground below (avoid getting dirt/sand into the cable) and spool the cable onto the drum allowing the eye bolt to spin naturally until it is in approximate position to connect to the keel, this allows the cable to be relaxed as it wraps around the drum. Failing to do so, will cause the cable to actually uncoil about it's center core, loosing most of its tensile strength. Don't ask how I know this...

Fair winds,
JL

Jerry

yachtsea
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2018 : 08:24:35

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TFyLbNqYnxg3xMFA7
I believe some adjustment is in order. So far, no leaks (well, as of last year). This will also allow to inspect the eyebolt, maybe a little up into the trunk but probably nothing to do with the pivot bolt. That elusive pivot pin. I bet recoveries will improve too. I have an issue with the bow not lining up on the trailer mast.

Thanks all,

Carl

quote:
Originally posted by jerlim

Hi Carl,
We've had a swinger for 13 years...and I can share a few things; Dave is right about the boat weight resting on the keel. Our bilge was dry as the desert until launching about year 10 years ago, water was coming into the bilge at a rate of about 3 gallons per 24 hours, which was pretty confusing as she had been on the hard, on blocks and stands...what changed???

We could not find the leak, took out EVERYTHING and no luck. So we did a short haul and while hanging from the slings, put water into the bilge (kinda counter intuitive - but it worked) water was coming from the keel trunk, right at the location where the lift cable bracket connects to the keel. I surmise that when storing the boat in the Fall, the yard bounced her a bit and that was enough to put a crack/hole. It was an easy glass repair and has held just fine, but we now store her with the keel lowered about 12", which allows for an annual inspection of the hardware, and prevents the hull from bouncing on the keel again...

Also, I change the lift cable and ball every two years as recommended for preventive maintenance (salt water...) and change the winch and hose every 5 years. I also actually put some lubricant around the volcano, not adhesive. As mentioned, the water is not under pressure and the lubricant makes the swap easier.

LASTLY - it is important that the new cable is not spiraled around itself when installed. I am not explaining it well, but the cable has a natural coil and the individual steel strands are wrapped around the core. It is best to install the new cable beginning at the winch end, with the cable laid out on the ground below (avoid getting dirt/sand into the cable) and spool the cable onto the drum allowing the eye bolt to spin naturally until it is in approximate position to connect to the keel, this allows the cable to be relaxed as it wraps around the drum. Failing to do so, will cause the cable to actually uncoil about it's center core, loosing most of its tensile strength. Don't ask how I know this...

Fair winds,
JL

Kittiwake
Deckhand

Members Avatar

5 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2018 : 08:10:44

Hi Carl, Great photos.
One question for you: Were you able to use the old winch handle or did you buy a new one when you bought the winch?

Thanks,
Barrett

quote:
Originally posted by yachtsea

Hello,

I replaced the winch on my 86 with a new winch from CD. The mount holes line up, the winch more or less lines up, and the cable feeds the same direction so those are good things but the face plate will need some adjustment for the hole to line up. That's not a big deal, I just found it strange. I do feel that the bolts provided were about an inch too short and I wound up reusing the original bolts which were approximately two inches longer. I like threads when I'm hauling a Volkswagen around under my boat.

Whilst removing the cable (I'm on my trailer so retracted) from the winch, I decided to inspect the turning ball which meant removing the black flexible tube from the volcano tube by way of two SS radiator-style clamps. It felt like a light coat of adhesive/sealant was present when I twisted it loose.

Do you need to add sealant when replacing the black tube at the base and clamping it back down?

Re: Turning ball. There was a small wear patch, small enough that I returned it to service but I'll note it in my logs. I have a picture if anyone is curious or wants to warn me of something important.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/g7A3n7OFoi8jjbU12
I also tried and was pleasantly surprised at the amount of visual I gained with a cell phone and DSLR down the tube to see the eye bolt condition. My trailer bunks are low enough that the boat's keel is certainly carrying substantial weight. Something I need to rectify this year after haul in. Calkin trailer appears to be readily adjustable. Is there a preference for height? I presume enough that the boat is only on the bunks and then the keel is lowered a turn or two to take tension off and distribute weight.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3yfhfwqw431zraKw2

What I could not get a good photo of was the pivot pin which is my primary concern.

Old winch (slips unexpectedly, not a good feature):
https://photos.app.goo.gl/6jIjVtP3Bb2Guj2e2

Guess it would be easier to just put these in an album.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CsJng1nxuqxycwBZ2

So, after all of that, my question was if I should and what kind (5200?) of sealant to use at the base of the black keel guide tube when it snugs onto the volcano tube and then secures with two SS radiator-style clamps please.

Thanks,

Carl

yachtsea
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2018 : 08:54:07

Hi Barret,

The CD winch handle was completely different. I was rummaging through the boat's documentation folder and found old Polaroids (which was rather cool) and then I found what appears to be the manual for the winch I just removed and I do not believe it was OEM. That was a square sleeve on the winch end of the handle fitting over a square axle. The new one (and I think they may even be sold separately) is an adapter with threads and set screws that threads onto the input shaft, two set screws lock it down, then you are left with a relatively shallow notch on the winch end of the new handle to place over the matching raised rectangular mold and I suppose that offers a positive fit but also allows for quick removal if there is a need. I'm not super confident on the seated position of the winch handle yet but that's not to say these are not quality parts, I think it might be a result of painted surfaces that need some wear.

If I locate a picture of the new scenario, I'll post it.
Carl

yachtsea
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2018 : 08:59:33

Aha, found it on CD's website. They do take good photos.

I'm guessing you are asking because of the price for the separate winch handle. I'm finding more and more that I can cope with some costs when the parts are integral to my boat staying afloat.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vd6yg68a4zAJCV288

Carl

Kittiwake
Deckhand

Members Avatar

5 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2018 : 12:09:48

Thanks Carl.
I just acquired an '86 and the winch and cable are original. Scary, but true. So I'm about to do the same job myself and I was hoping that the old handle could be utilized.
CD's site was a little confusing on this point because they said (and I quote) "The cylinder included with the handle pictured below is not included with the winch. If the old cylinder can not be removed from the winch, you will need to order a new handle." I am guessing that they are not talking about the OEM winch and handle. If they are referring the OEM I'm not sure what it would take to dismantle the old winch. Has anyone out there done that?

The one in my boat is just like the one you pulled out of yours. That is why I asked you about your new winch and handle.
I'm also like you in that if it's a safety issue, cost can be a minor issue.
One other thing I might add: I wouldn't put any kind of lube on the cable tube. It kind of negates the reason for having two clamps on that hose.

Thanks again.

Barrett

quote:
Originally posted by yachtsea

Hi Barret,

The CD winch handle was completely different. I was rummaging through the boat's documentation folder and found old Polaroids (which was rather cool) and then I found what appears to be the manual for the winch I just removed and I do not believe it was OEM. That was a square sleeve on the winch end of the handle fitting over a square axle. The new one (and I think they may even be sold separately) is an adapter with threads and set screws that threads onto the input shaft, two set screws lock it down, then you are left with a relatively shallow notch on the winch end of the new handle to place over the matching raised rectangular mold and I suppose that offers a positive fit but also allows for quick removal if there is a need. I'm not super confident on the seated position of the winch handle yet but that's not to say these are not quality parts, I think it might be a result of painted surfaces that need some wear.

If I locate a picture of the new scenario, I'll post it.
Carl

yachtsea
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2018 : 12:22:13

Hi,

Did I say lube? I meant sealant and I concur, I went with the clamps only albeit there was some trace of maybe 3M on the inside when I pulled it.

If you would like any more pictures (can you view the album of the winch replacement I posted?) I can certainly furnish. Overall observations are:
Really wish I could have picked up the boat and drop the keel enough to disconnect from the keel's eyebolt so I could remove twist while cranking up. I think I got it by spinning the winch but it simply would have been better to do it the proper direction (disconnect from keel, not winch).
The instructions I received suggest wrapping the end of the cable around the axle of the winch once and tightening down the holddown bolts (look carefully in your box, they're in there). I think this is far superior to what I observed upon removal of the old one.
Do not lubricate the friction plates (duh, but true).
Keep your hardware. I wound up using 2/3 of the older/longer bolts and while I like nylon self-locking nuts, I also have a soft spot in my heart for lock washers from the military airwing. Belt and suspenders I guess. Just do not lose them in the flight controls.
Good luck. Be careful.

Carl

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