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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Radar

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River Harley
Navigator

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132 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/09/2005 : 17:11:18

Planning to do some sailing in foggy areas this years. Does anyone have experience with installation of radar equipment on the 250 (other than deflectors) i.e. feasibility, power requirements, placement, etc.?

Also, does anyone have any 250 knockdown experiences, stories, rumors, etc. you can share? (I know. It's a strange question.)

RH

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2005 : 21:39:17

Hey River,

A couple of thoughts... I'm not sure about being seen by the radar sets that sport boats carry... but I can testify to being well seen by Great Lakes ore freighters on their radar and this without reflectors.

I was caught in bad fog twice two years ago... I can appreciate your desire to have it. The good news is, if your sailing while under fog conditions its not too bad because you can hear really well... but using the outboard (even a quite one) is less desirable.

I've not been knocked down, but I've broached a ton of times on the 250. Actually a broach isn't much of a deal on a 250 other than scattering everything not nailed down inside the cabin...including the ice box. A bungee added there is the trick.

The c250 is going to come around fast when she is heeled more than 45 degrees and forgive. Her rigging doesn't even creak and she is not strained because she simply isn't that heavy of a boat. The exception of course would be if she weren't making weigh and were hit by downdrafts off a thunder head...she could definately be knocked down then and any one silly enough to have very much sail aloft in those conditions needs a scare. Because she has no side decks and sports a high coaming, she doesn't take water over the rail.

Perhaps slightly related...I've only experienced water flooding the cockpit sole on one occassion... it was at the North end of the Georgian Bay... was on a starboard beat into a stinking wind from the south west. The waves were still coming very strong at around 6 foot from the south where the wind had been. A mile or so away from Kilarney, Ont... I experienced rogue back swell every few minutes that would wash through the open transom and flood the cockpit sole.

This stirs another thought... one of the most interesting characteristics of the 250 is the gurgle from the lav sink while on a starboard tack... resulting from the immersion of the lav through hull drain.

Dang, that leads to another thought...early models with the fresh water under the galley, required a fresh water valve in the lav to be closed or the water tank would drain into the lav on a starboard tack.

Less and more than you wanted to know...but perhaps interesting to some.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 08:08:58

River,

I was caught in a very fog last year while coastal cruising. I buddy who was with me somewhere in the soup, and who had radar, radioed to tell me that he had me targeted "on" an island I was trying to clear using chart, compass, and depth contours. The fog was so thick I didn't see the island. I resolved then to improve my ability to navigate under limited visiblity conditions. Radar is not an option for me however. First, I don't have room on my C25 in or near the cockpit to mount the screen, nor do I want to mount the ray-dome on my mast. Secondly, it's too expensive. I settled for a decent quality GPS/chart plotter, which should help. At least I'll have a visual view of where I am in relation to land hazards, nav aids, etc.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 11:39:15

Al.... I think your plan is reasonable. I'm a strong believer that to provide the ability to focus on task at hand, one needs to remove or diminish as many other task that compete for cerebral processing bandwidth. Diminishing the navigation concerns should allow better focus on the fog, making soundings, listening for soundings, listening to securitee calls, easier and more precise.

I don't have a cockpit mounted chartplotter, but do take advantage of the gps. To do so however takes some discipline. The gps alone doesn't tell enough hence why chartplotting, so that the current location can be referenced to the visual objects on the screen.

A non chartplotter owner then must have done the prep work to make waypoints (reference points)that do either one of two things <ul><li>provide a safe rhumb line between two points or </li><li>mark the known hazard(s)</li></ul>
Then its a simple matter to use the gps to stay on the rhumb line by monitoring crosstrack error (xte) or selecting "goto" the marked hazard where its course and distance can be monitored.

Of course, the predicate is that these points have been stored ahead of the fog... that is where your chartplotter shines... the storage of the referenced land or hazard has been done whearas, it behooves me to make provision for those references and store them.

This begs the question, is the choice to forego investing in a chartplotter lessening the safety factor? The simple answer has to be yes.... but enough to justify the expense?

I've wrestled with this and I suppose the answer is in a question, have I ever felt unsafe or can I perceive a safety issue that can't be handled by a standard gps?

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 15:11:31

Something I heard in the last several weeks concerning the tsunami was that in a lot of areas, charts/chartplotters/GPS reference have been rendered obsolete due to the rearranging of land masses, island and other coastal structures.

The news mentioned the story of one person going to a GPS coordinate for a port, but the port was no longer there.

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 15:33:49

Maybe I'm missing something, but is the consensus here that it's prudent to sail in fog with only a knowledge of where you are, and just assume others have radar and will see you? I've always considered sailing by "ear", blasting a horn every minute, etc., as a backup plan, not a first course of action. Then again, maybe I'm being too cautious.

When I sail to Catalina, there's a very busy shipping lane to cross. In a fog, I'd turn around and head home before I'd rely on; 1) a ship seeing me on their radar, and 2) them actually taking some action to avoid a collision.

When I bought my boat in '03, my dealer advised against radar on a C250 (I didn't press it, but will have radar if/when I move up), but said if I ever did install it, to mount it on a tower aft, rather than the mast.

Edited by - on

Oscar
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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 17:44:30

You equip for the mission. If I was in your boots, or sailing out of Protland, Maine I'd have radar, in a rowboat. I've seen the fog on the west coast. For the sailing I'm currently doing it's overkill, as I rarely run into it. I do have a habit of sailing around at night, and, especially when entering harbors, will no longer do it without a plotter, ever since I got one this summer. Along Arlyns line of reasoning I can attest to the fact that I spent 5% of my time figuring out where I was on the chart, and 95% heads up, instead of the other way around.

If you decide to get a radar, I can point out that with the onslaught of color displays, the monochrome units are now very on sale, new and used from the gadget freaks that are upgrading.

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 21:11:02

I've experienced bad fog twice. One is accounted for in the interesting and bazarr [url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/fogencounter.html"]fog story[/url] written a couple of years ago.

The second time, I was approached by a power cruiser on the starboard stern quarter and he also saw me on radar and hailed me on the vhf. I heard him before he hailed.

I would not however sail one of the well traveled legs between two Great Lakes harbors in the fog.... gps and autopilots have put everyone on the same track (both ways).

As to the quickest way to figuring where one is on a chart... I have to agree with the compass rose waypoint method unless one is very familiar with the chart edge markings.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 01/11/2005 21:12:22

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 14:17:25

Arlyn,

I agree 100%. One factor that must be considered however, whether using a GPS, GPS with chart plotter, radar, or plain old dead-reconning with a compass, two phrases are applicable - inattention will kill the cat and garbage in, garbage out. In my case, I entered a waypoint incorrectly which put me too close to danger. Secondly, using the compass, chart, and depth sounder in concert is a prescribed naviagation tool. In a moment of inattention, I did not notice a change in depth from 218 feet to 58 feet and its direct correlation to being "on the island". A valuable lesson learned on my part. The technology is only as good as the user and we must be constantly aware of what's going on around the boat. I plan on being much more careful next time, but expect that the boat to hazard problem will be slightly lessoned with the plotter.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

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Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 16:14:43

Rules of the road for fog or limited visablility or to blow your whistle one prolonged blast once every minute while underway or ring a bell once every two minutes while at anchor. My only experience was on Desiderata, my C-22, while on the St. Johns River. Went out one Friday and stayed on the hook. Saturday morning found us socked in. All day and half of Sunday the fog was so thick I could not see anything past the bow. I had no GPS back then. But I knew the I-295 bridge was north of me somewhere. So not wanting to stay another night I decided to weigh anchor and follow the compass. I did blow the whistle when I heard another boat motor. Fortunatlely after about two hours of that the fog did lift off the surface some. My thoughts are that the rules of the road were around a long time before RADAR, or GPS, or even VHF.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 10:59:28

Ben,

Appreciate your comment, and you are right, the rules of the road are there for a purpose. A sound producing device will not keep you off the rocks however during periods of limited visibility. In my case, I was distracted from navigating my boat by another skipper on a 50' motor yacht broadcasting a securite radio call regarding his presence in the immediate area. Not wanting to hit him, or him me, and not hearing his horn, I radioed for a lat/lon location.

I had a similar incident two years ago in heavy fog off the Keweenaw point in Lake Superior. We were motoring to a way point when a fishing boat appeared out of the fog about 100 yards away. Although he had radar, he was not sounding a noise device, and didn't have any navigation lights on - another requirement during periods of limited visibilty. I will say this in defense of this boater. In waters like Lake Superior, where boat traffic is very sparse, few skippers follow the rules completely. There is no reason to until you actualy need them. The bottom line is that we must be continually alert and vigilant for the other guy and practice the rules the best we can.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

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Capt. Kurt
Navigator

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185 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2005 : 19:53:32

RH,
Did you install that radar? Can you post pics if you did, I would be curious to see that installation.
Thanks,
Kurt

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