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Outboards: is 6hp enough?

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Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/05/2006 : 15:53:36

Is 6 horse enough juice for a Catalina 25 fixed keel tall rig?

I sail in Lake St. Clair and the Detroit River. I would like to take a trip to Lake Erie this year, and will have to buck 1.0 - 1.5 knots of current all the way back up. We get big boats, motor boats, jet skis, iron ore freighters, all sorts of stuff what make the river very choppy.

My old Johnson 6 (2-stroke) was enough to get me up to ~6 knots through the water at full out - even through light chop. Of course large chop and the like would slow us down. Will the Tohatsu 6 XLS do the same or a little more?

I would prefer to stay away from the heavy 8 and 10 horse while saving a few bucks. If I went with the 10, will that actually get me through the chop any faster? If I spend the extra ~600 and take the weight hit, will I get 6.5 knots through waves?

-Matt Q
Detroit, MI

Edit: Removed the duplicate stuff I had in my sig line.

former Captain of Heartbeat
Catalina 25 Tall
#4816

Edited by - Heartbeat on 06/05/2006 15:56:53

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2006 : 16:10:31

I see no safety margin in a 6hp motor on a Catalina 25. If I were you I would go with the 10.

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2006 : 16:29:40

Heh, we have gotten by for a season and a half with a four horse. It is pretty slow (4-4.5 knots) but it has gotten us to the race course. Of course, I wouldn't dare try coming up the river with it. As it is, we have 1/2 or 3/4 mile of the Detroit River (Bayview YC to Lake St. Clair) that seems to take forever at 3 knots over the ground.

I guess I am really surprised about the lack of options. There is the Tohatsu 6XLS, Tohatsu 8LS, Tohatsu 10XLS, Honda 8XLS and Honda 10XLS. (The Hondas are quite expensive.) Am I missing any options?

I am leaning toward throwing in the extra $100 for the 8 and dealing with the LS rather than the XLS. I have gotten by with a 20" shaft since I bought the boat in '97. I should be able to cope.

It's a tough weight and price jump from the 8LS at $1500 to the 10XLS for $2000. Of course, I just bought a new motor bracket this year that limits the weight to 83lb. So toss in the extra cost for another motor bracket for the 10XLS.

There is also the racing cost. I like to run the DRYA races here, and the club Thursday night series. With the little motor on there, I usually just leave the thing on the bracket. Of course with a 110lb behemoth up there, I may be forced to leave it on the bracket!

Thanks for your help.

-Matt Q.

Edited by - on

Trust Me
1st Mate

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USA
71 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2006 : 16:36:55

Matt: I have a Johnson 6hp 2 stroke for my 1985 Tall Rig Fixed keel and have used it for the life of my ownership with minor repair/relacement of parts to keep it realiable and ready when I really need it. I've used it on Lake Superior, crossing lake michigan, and putzing around St. Clair for 2001 nationals. In some severe weather I have been able to punch through the waves after negotiating the trough with great stress on myself but the boat did fine. My earlier mistakes were not bringing enough fuel when the wind from the "wrong" direction made that little two stroke work far more than I anticipated. Another issue with a small motor like the 6hp Johnson is having enough power to maneuver in a marina under strong winds. But then too much power may put you into the dock when all you want is to be along side. Practice Practice Practice.
Ron

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2006 : 17:24:19

Ron,

Yes, my Johnson 6 was enough for my tall rig fixed keel as well. Not really any extra, but enough. Which is why I started this thread. As long as the Tohatsu 6 XLS gives just as much juice or a touch more, I'll be fine. I read in some other threads about the modern 4 cycles not running at the designed rpm and (hence) not giving the full juice.

Btw, my old Johnson 6 would burn 3/4 gal/hr at 5.5 - 5.75 knots. Can I expect significantly better efficiency from the 4 stroke? I thought I read on another thread about someone's Tohatsu/Nissan burning 0.8 gal/hr. I expected better.

-Matt Q

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2006 : 17:54:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Is 6 horse enough juice for a Catalina 25 fixed keel tall rig?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No.

When you are racing you will have your boat as light as possible - when you cruise, your boat will probably be at its maximum displacement. Your boat will be lower in the water and will represent harder work load for your OB.
Lake Erie is the smallest and shallowest of the Great Lakes but still sees a lot of commercial traffic and significant weather events.
Even though a 6HP is good enough for most of the time, its that one time that your safety is at stake, where the extra HP makes the extra weight and expense worth while.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2006 : 18:58:06

Hi Matt, I am up the Clinton river at Markley Marina. My Johnson 9.9 (now in the shop) was only giving half power and there was a couple times in the last couple weeks that I really needed the extra power. I plan on doing a lot of racing, but I like to hang a fishing pole off the stern while racing so you can figure I am not too concerned about the weight. Cheers.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2006 : 20:27:46

Sail with an 8 hp tohatsu 2 stroke on Lake Erie. 6 might work on an inland lake, but I don't think it will get you much on the great lakes (Al gore version with Lake St. Clair included)

dw

Any interest in bringing your boat down to Cleveland in 3 weeks to race Nationals?

Edited by - Champipple on 06/05/2006 20:35:01

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2006 : 22:33:24

Matt... IMHO, on those bodies of water, the shaft length is more important than the difference between 6 and 8 hp. Both engines can get you to 5-knot cruising speed at less than full throttle in flat water, but neither can if the prop is jumping out of the water. If to get the XLS the choice is between 6 and 10 (9.8), then I'd spend a few more boat units for the 9.8, which gives you the extra margin for punching through chop as well as the length to keep the prop wet. Think about how long you'll have it, how much per year the difference works out to be, and how long you'll be kicking yourself for "not getting what you didn't pay for."

At about 90 lbs, I can't imagine that the 9.8 is going to make your boat measurably slower under sail than the 6. It certainly isn't going to make you drag your transom (except under power when you throttle it up past hull-speed).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/07/2006 01:06:01

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 01:17:35

There are many things to consider. The biggest factor is the prop size. It needs enough surface area to move the water or it will act like a blender behind the boat.

The fuel economy is a factor of load. At equal loads, the single cyl should me more fuel efficient. Above 6 hp the 9.8 is going to burn more. I have 39 hours on my 9.8 Nissan and burn .9 @ full power and .6 @ normal cruise speed. The 9.8 has the power to push the boat at hull speed bucking a 20 knot headwind.

I have mentioned the 4 stroke running under the rated rpm. My stock 9.8 ran @ 4400 rpm @full throttle. It is supposed to run at 5000-6000 @wot. With the lowest pitch prop, it now runs at 4950 and seems to run a bit smoother.

For the price, the Nissan 9.8 is hard to beat. You sail in big water, and do not need to skimp on the OB. An inland lake would be a whole differant story.

I really like the quietness and how smooth it runs. I makes the Cat 25 a nice, motor launch on the no-wind days.

Tom

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2006 : 08:50:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 Any interest in bringing your boat down to Cleveland in 3 weeks to race Nationals?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Lots of interest. Since I bought the boat in '97 I have wanted to come to the Nationals. The previous/original owner (Bill Borrer) went to them at least once and took a place - or so he claimed.

Frankly, though, I can't make it happen again this year. I could either sail or trailer down, but don't have the vacation time for either. To make things more difficult, we don't have a full race crew together yet this year. My #1 race pal - my spouse - just isn't up for a bunch of competitive racing this year - we are expecting child #2 in the fall. Great news, but it has put a dent in the racing schedule.

I was planning on bringing the boat to the Detroit area a couple of years ago for the Nationals out of Crescent on Lake St. Claire, but it just didn't work out. We got Heartbeat up here the next year.

One of these years the planets will align and Heartbeat will be back at the Nationals. Hopefully it is sometime soon.

Totally off topic post - sorry about that.

-Matt Q.

Edited by - on

Jmurfy
Navigator

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USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2006 : 23:19:58

I have a remote controlled electric start Yamaha 9.9 w/ alternator to charge my batteries. It weighs 105 lbs and I'm very happy with it. Wouldnt want anything smaller since I sail on Lake Michigan and the conditions can go from 1-2 ft waves to 5-6 ft (or more) waves in the blink of an eye. I like knowing I have the power to cut through them to get back to the harbor. The motor doesnt strain and burns about a gallon an hour in heavy chop.

Edited by - on

Jeff_Clarke_bankone.com
Deckhand

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17 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2006 : 14:26:18

Matt,

It’s a small world I also sail in lower Lake St.Clair and need to motor up the Detroit River against the current. Just to keep this tread alive - In 2001 I purchased an 8hp XLS 25" Johnson. Knowing the area well and the conditions of the river and lake - I wouldn’t want anything less than 8hp. Additional as you know the mouth of the river can get real soupy on Sat or Sun with all the stink boats traveling thru that channel - so a 25 inch staff is a must.

BTW were you sailing last Tuesday night – I passed by another C-25 around 20:45 in front of the BYC. ??

Jeff Clarke – Hailey’s Comet – # 5163 , FK, SR

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2006 : 10:46:30

Jeff: yes, that was us. Sail 4816. Our slip is in the west harbour of Bayview - 4th from the hoist. Give me a shout next time... I'll be the guy holding the tiller with a cup in his hand. In fact, I'll be out tonight for Bayview's Thursday 'off the dock' race.

Btw, SWMBO has dictated that we are to 'get by' with whatever motor I can get to run for now. Next year she promises a new O/B.

So it's the 4 horse unless I can get the shaft out of the head of the 6. The 4 isn't so bad - it is just slow. Real slow in chop.

Here is to hoping that Tohatsu will sell an 8 XLS with a charging system next year. Thanks for everyone's advice.

-Matt Q.

Edited by - on

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