Association Forum - OH MY GOD Race Results

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Capri 25 Specific Forum

OH MY GOD Race Results

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

my_tahoe_too
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/28/2008 : 11:03:35

THANK YOU CHRIS, THANK YOU DAN! What a great night! First across @ the gun, squirted away into clear air and never looked back. Great acceleration outpointed out everything'ed the pack. Delta @ the finish - 3 MINUTES! Almost lapped the Div. B starters. Uppers 38, lowers (at the chain plates) 32, aft lowers hand tight. Loose forestay. wind @ the start was 6 kts. dropping to 3 @ the finish. Shirt sleeves and shorts. Nothing better! thank you gentlemen. Thanks for all the hard work Chris. I'm a believer now. . .only took four years. whatever!

//doghouse

Doghouse
1980 Hull #34
My Tahoe Too!
Home Port: Alameda & SF Bay

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 11:18:14

way to go DOG! Did it help moving the forward lowers back to the plates? The rig is set for light air, l am interested in seeing it preform in mid to heavy. I really did nothing but fuse EP and Harrstick. How was the downwind legs? Did you get water in threw the scuppers?

Edited by - on

jmadd
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 12:01:06

Yes, indeed, congratulations! May the rest of the season bring more of the same.
Do they post your results on the internet anywhere? I'd be interested to see who you're racing against and the relative ratings since our rating is under review here in Austin next month.
Thanks, John

Edited by - on

my_tahoe_too
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 13:46:24

Well, 1st. things first: The downwind stuff wasn't a barn burner @ 4 - 6 kts of apparent however the DDW was the reason to move the fwd. lowers to the chain plates in the first place. I just could never figure out the tune with them there. When we were powering up, the aft. lowers were just sloppy, but the uppers and fwd's were good. In this particular race series, we're the rabbit @ 171 using the 130% and flying the spinny. The next were an IOR One design @ 180, 2 Islander 30's @ 180 each, and a Tartan 30 as well. Ranger 23 in for contest @ 216. It can be very challenging in heavy airs with the Islanders, as we all know how our 'little' boats do in the heavy wind. But anything below 13 is good for me. Im not inclined to reef anything. We own 155%, 130%, 110%, 1/2 Oz. and 3/4 Oz. spinnies and all the usual tools that go with that. Island is very tardy in posting results however I will endev. to speed the process along. If Ive forgotten anything, just drop another dime. . .//doghouse

Edited by - on

Pirate Princess
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 19:42:41

I am confused by the numbers. Since I am fairly new to the Capri I have been reading alot of the posts. In the original posts on tension I read by Capri25 that the forwards are hand tight, the afts at 32 and the shrouds at 38.

But reading in the beginning of this post by tahoe, I am seeing that afts are hand tight? Am I missing something?

Since my boat is in storage I am curious what size Loos gauge do I need to check my rigging? I dont have access to the boat for another week.

And thank you to all who post, you guys have been a great source of information.

Oh and congrats on the race, very cool to pull away from the pack.

Karen in Kansas City

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 20:17:47

Karen, he has relocated the forward lowers to the side stay location- about 16" aft. The wind was light, but if it was stronger we would tighten the rig. I have my aft lowers tight to establish 3/4" of prebend in the mast. It all depends on the sail shape and the slot between the main and genoa

Edited by - on

my_tahoe_too
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 10:26:55

First, the tension gauge (link included) is the ‘product’ mentioned. I have owned one for several years now, and it is an essential member of my bag-o-tricks.

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|107602|108024&id=155900

Mr. Chris is correct re: the tension (i.e. upper stays @ 38, aft lowers hand tight, forward lowers @ 32). With the ‘canvas’ I am using (UK-Halsey Carbon Tape drives, 130% & 150%’s, and a Square Weave 7.5 Oz. Main, there isn’t much in the way of ‘stretch’ and thus, my sailmeister (Rooster Sails) has suggested that the mast be in column and only a minimal amount of pre-bend <3/4” with an 8” rake. I’m not so sure that I will be changing up for increased winds – for instance >15 kts – as the Estuary rarely gets that extensive for prolonged periods and generally stays fairly flat. Now out in the Bay (SF Bay), that’s an entirely different story. And I generally pick and choose my days ‘in the big water’ carefully – as it is not an unusual day for >20 kts gusting to 25 and heavy chop especially with wind and tide opposed.

The idea with easy on the aft lowers was to allow – as in make available - back stay tension – thus forestay control and with the aft lowers tight, the mast really has nowhere to go but press down on the cabin and the post. Not really what a 30 year old boat needs at this stage.

I am not the end all or be all in regards to our boats. Just plugging along getting bits and pieces from here and there, and piecing it all together to make the boat go fast. As we all know, you learn to sail in an afternoon, you spend the rest of your life learning how to do it correctly.

Fair winds. . .

//doghouse

Edited by - on

my_tahoe_too
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2008 : 14:34:48

Tension Gauge Pro PT-1
Cable size: 3/32", 1/8", 5/32"
Professional model

Item #: 608694
Manufacturer: LOOS & CO.
Model #: PT-1

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2008 : 10:01:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by my_tahoe_too
 upper stays @ 38, aft lowers hand tight, forward lowers @ 32)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ok, THAT makes more sense to me. The other post listed the afts at 32 and the Fwd's hand tight - which seemed bass-ackwards to me.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2008 : 11:22:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by my_tahoe_too
 upper stays @ 38, aft lowers hand tight, forward lowers @ 32)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ok, THAT makes more sense to me. The other post listed the afts at 32 and the Fwd's hand tight - which seemed bass-ackwards to me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No forwards are hand tight, aft lowers 32, go read the Haarstick tuning guide under manuals.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2008 : 11:51:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by my_tahoe_too
 upper stays @ 38, aft lowers hand tight, forward lowers @ 32)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ok, THAT makes more sense to me. The other post listed the afts at 32 and the Fwd's hand tight - which seemed bass-ackwards to me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No forwards are hand tight, aft lowers 32, go read the Haarstick tuning guide under manuals.

Edited by - on

my_tahoe_too
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2008 : 13:29:24

Mr. Chris, sorry. The aft lowers ARE hand tight, maybe a little more. The forward lowers, which we can now call baby stays, are @ 32 anchored inboard of the uppers (shrouds) @ 38. This configuration was originally recommended by the sail maker for DDW operations and I've run it this way before, with even "looser" settings (read tension) without issue. I did replace the bulkheads with marine teak ply and replaced all fasteners when I first bought MT2 and the fasteners/ bulkhead has not moved since. When sailing in a fresh breeze (8- 10 kts)the aft lowers are just loose, not flopping and the leeward uppers and baby stays are still snug. The aft's should be loose as you apply back stay tension (appro. 25 - 50%) depending on the chop and pointing right? So I think I'm on target with the tune. The boat does accelerate better now it seems out of the tack(s), and downwind? Well, we all know about our little secret, right?
This setup is good for HERE. Right? We all have our 'home water' stuff which may or may not apply everywhere. Oh, yeh, below decks, other than the mentioned reinforcing (stock alum. angle under the aft lowers), nothing else.
So, splashing the boat Friday for more tuning and practice with the crew. New spinny pole build out, etc, etc. (never ends!) (thank god!)
So, as the Dudes said "Be excellant to each other, and party on sailing/ racing Dudes".

//doghouse

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2008 : 13:52:37

I have been just using the haarstick and the e/p tuning guides for the setup, then adjusting from there. The wind here is on the stronger side as Sunday it was 22 gust to 24 mph, and yesterday it was 30 gust to 40. I did tc on Sunday and yesterday was a good day to fly kites with the kids. I am still stock all the way around but do have the carbo foil from harken. My thought were you need the aft lowers for prebend on the mast, tighten the backstay 50% and the rig is tuned even, tighten 75 and the aft lowers are slack, and the forwards are in tune with the 32. Easy way to adjust the lowers from a light breeze slack forstay, to beaver wind, by just pulling one line on the backstay.

Thoughts?

Edited by - on

my_tahoe_too
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2008 : 14:37:09

Okee-dokee. Very clever! We here call that kind of windage August/ September.

Homie's not doing that (in my boat). Just too much work just to stay afoot. Anyway, the prebend is really more about the forwards isn't it? The aft lowers control the amount of 'prebend' in conjunction with the uppers i.e., tighten forward lowers to 'pull' or induce bend @ the spreaders to fill-in-the-blank
inches. Then hand tighten the aft lowers snug to prevent pumping.
I agree that a little prebend, especially with that kind of windage is absolutely necessary, maybe more. And tight rigging as well. That's interesting about the 75% and the aft's are loose. Makes sense - maybe someone else can 'splain' the prebend - fwd/ aft lowers moe betta. As long as it stay where I put it and continue to be competitive - what-da-hey!

//doghouse

Edited by - on

my_tahoe_too
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2008 : 14:42:41

p.s., Beaver Wind? I've heard of dirty wind, bad air, S.B.D, and small and large animal flatulance', but Beaver Wind. Cool! Party on Dude. . .

Edited by - on

Pirate Princess
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2008 : 18:34:31

Thanks for the clarification guys. That really helped! Ok, so here is MY strategy for winning on the water this year. I will read the posts frequently to find out which of you is winning in your club races under similar conditions to mine and will tune my boat accordingly, LOL!!!! So tune up guys, I am watching you!!!! Grins . . . . and seriously, thanks again!

Karen in Kansas City

Edited by - on

joearcht
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2008 : 07:19:01

Wow, I've been following this thread with interest and trying to learn something. It seems to me that MT2 and Volare are setting up the rig in opposite ways. I guess this is a testiment to the flexibility of the boat, but it sure is confusing for this less experianced club racer. I have one question to post. I've gone back to numberous "how too" books and sources to find out the definition of "pre-bend". I've found the reasons for and the logic behind this form of tune but have not really clearly found out which "direction" the mast is suppose to bend. Therefore, can someone clearly state if "pre-bend" is bending the mast "forward" or "aft" of column?
Currently I have my mast raked aft 8" and then bent aft another 1/2" with the aft lowers so that when I tighten the backstay I think I'm straighten the mast. I also have a North main and they lost the specs on the sail so have not been able to tell me what pre-bend the sail was designed for.
Thanks in advance

Edited by - on

my_tahoe_too
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2008 : 12:43:39

Pre-bent, etc. I'm not so sure the Volare and MT2 are on as different tacks as you would suggest. Wind strength, chop, crew weight (as in rail-meat) and canvas condition are all part of the formula for sailing well (and even winning sometimes!). Well, that and a smooth bottom (no offense meant, PP.) To address the issue directly, I'm pretty sure you're NOT to have bend of ANY kind going 'aft' as it were. That sounds alot like inversion and that's a BAD thing. Mr. Chris, I think, is pre-bending to accommodate his wind variables as he mentioned, with one moment @ 5 kts. and then 5 minutes later, its blowing Beaver Wind and he's got to flatten everything to stay 'right'. I'm a little more concerned with in column than with quickly changing velocities. And with UK Carbons and whatnot, I don't really need to flatten more than perhaps 100% backstay, and 100% outhaul, which I've carried into 20 kts. on the 135% without to too much problem. I wasn't very effective in pointing and clever handling but I got home and didn't break anything - so it wasn't all bad.
I think the idea is to flatten the main @ the COE (center of effort I think they call it) to reduce heal, cord depth (pocket) and maintain some control over a boat that really wasn't built for heavy airs, in my opinion.

So, hows that for Friday morning blah - blah?

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2008 : 15:51:21

I'm running a North main, which calls for significantly less rake than the EP or Haarstick mains call for - 4" if I recall. This sail also likes more pre-bend than the EP sails do. But I cant see that calling for a completely different rig tune.

If I tighten the aft lowers to 32 and the fwd lowers hand tight, how does the pre-bend get put in? Also, wouldnt that encourage the mast to invert, ie bend toward the rear/sail rather than toward the bow? How would the backstay induce any additional mast bend to help flatten the main if it's working AGAINST the aft lower tension? I realize that with a masthead rig we're really not getting that much mast bend from the backstay, but why have it fight the lowers, too? Ize confused...

I currently have the "Haarstick" configuration (aft lowers tensioned, fwd lowers tight enough to give pre-bend), and we did have great upwind performance Wed night (10G17 with a 155), but we were also the lowest PHRF boat in the fleet and SHOULD have been making gains. Too bad our dw boathandling was a bit rusty and we let a couple of boats catch us...

In the past I've been using the fwd lowers to induce the pre-bend (about 3/4" in my case), and the aft lowers to limit the amount of bending induced by the backstay coming on (ie hand-tight with the backstay off). I think I'm going to return to this setup over the weekend and see how we do next week.

Edited by - on

joearcht
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 06:56:34

Team Short Bus,

I have a North Main also, that looks not to be as old as my boat.
I gave North the serial no. on it but they can't find the design data for it. It was built in the Northeast and sold to a previous owner in CO. It is Dacron and loose footed with a hugh (backstay conflicting) roach. If you have an North tuning data that is specific to the Capri 25 I'd sure like to look at it.
Thanks

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 09:38:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by joearcht
 If you have an North tuning data that is specific to the Capri 25 I'd sure like to look at it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Joe:
I have been unsuccessful at finding a North tuning guide for the CP25 online (or anywhere, for that matter!). My current main is a N in good condition, loose-footed with a shelf - but not over-roached. The only time I conflict with the standing rigging is if I hoist the main too high and the headcar catches the backstay.

Most of my tuning info comes from chatting with area PO's who used North sails, and all I've retained to date is the 4" rake and 3/4" pre-bend.

My headstay is of insufficient length to get the 8-10" rake used by the EP/Haarstick crowd. The brother of the PO for #183 worked for the local North rep at the time, so I've stuck with his numbers for now. At some point (maybe this fall?) I expect I'll have to convert to EP as North hasnt exactly kept up with the CP25 side of things and I'm in need of a new 155 and 135. The bummer is that means a main, 155, headstay, and probably a backstay - all at once.

Jim

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 20:21:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 If I tighten the aft lowers to 32 and the fwd lowers hand tight, how does the pre-bend get put in? Also, wouldn't that encourage the mast to invert, ie bend toward the rear/sail rather than toward the bow? How would the backstay induce any additional mast bend to help flatten the main if it's working AGAINST the aft lower tension? I realize that with a masthead rig we're really not getting that much mast bend from the backstay, but why have it fight the lowers, too? Ize confused...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I can see where allot of people are getting confused, I sure am. I am following both the haarstick and EP guides, and after review still feel that the aft lowers are putting the prebend in the mast.

I have been thinking this over for the last couple of days and I may have a expert chime in just to clear the air on the rig, and tuning the boat.

listed below are my thoughts, I am not an engineer so use these at your own risk. Lets get started.

1. Forstay- The length of my forstay is set at 31'-10" to give me about 8" to 10" of mast rake. Once the mast is set with the forstay, I move to the side stays to get the mast in column. I get the stays hand tight and chect the distance with the main halyard in two different places on the deck, I use two places because I don't know if the stantions, or hardware is set square with the rig, or with the boat. I check right at the chain plates, then aft at the rear stanchions. I place a tape mark on the halyard, then mark the tape with a sharpy. I get the mast square with the boat and start to tighten the stays to keep the mast square. I do not compress the mast yet with the stays set at 38, I wait until the lowers are set.

2. Aft Lowers - Think about the aft lowers for a second, If you have a spar, and there is a aft lower between 1/2 to 1/3 up the spar. This line moves down the center of the spar to the base, this would give you a strait mast.

Now move this line aft, with the mast in column and this line aft of the top stay, you add tension to this line, this will compress the base into the cabin top and transfer the load to the compression post. The prebend is between the top of the aft lower and the base - MID WAY. The compression on the mast will cause the spar to bend forward because of the compression.

If the aft lower was moved back towards the cockpit the load would move up the mast, not compressing it into the deck.
Backstay - I have a 6 to 1 on our backstay, and I can crank it down so hard that the whole boat creaks from the tranfer of the loads. By using the backstay I can flatten the mainsail and bend the mast tip back aft, this also tightenes the forstay from around 4" to flat leaving the entry of the genoa flat and moving the air on the foil back towards the slot.

I have no idea if this is right or not just my thoughts on the lowers and how they work with the mast.

Edited by - Ericson33 on 05/05/2008 20:22:25

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 20:45:23

I have emailed Harry, Maybee he will chime in?

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2008 : 21:23:37

Taken from the WYC Pages:
by Ken Seider
Mainsheet, Spring 1983 issue

The next step is to set up how much the middle of the mast bends. This is controlled by the forward and aft lowers along with the backstay. If you were to tighten the backstay without any tension on the aft lower shrouds, the first part of the tension would be transmitted to the forestay and straighten it. But as a point, the tension no longer goes into keeping the forestay tight; instead, it starts to press the masthead down towards the deck. This is "compression loading," which happens to all rigs to some extent. Because the mast section is "bendy", it will bow forward in the middle, as much as 8" – 10". This is fine if you have a really full sail and need to flatten it, but I like a medium-full sail with lots of power to get the boat moving and pointing. Therefore, I tighten my aft lower shrouds as tight as I can, and then put just enough tension on the forward lowers to keep them snug so the mast doesn’t "pump" in a seaway. The tension on the aft lowers keeps the middle of the mast from bending too far. Three to five inches of bend when the backstay is applied is good. Also, by preventing the mast from bending too much in the middle, the rig tension is transferred back into the forestay, where the tighter it is, the better pointing you will obtain.

Edited by - on

epsails
Deckhand

Members Avatar

2 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2008 : 09:07:15

Basically your headstay length sets the amount of mast rake you have, the backstay controls how much tension you have on the headstay and how much you bend the mast, the cap shrouds keep the top of the mast centered side to side. In a rig like the Capri 25 that doesn’t have in-line lower shrouds it is the combination of the tension on the forward and aft lowers keep the middle of the mast from sagging to leeward and help to control mast bend.
Pre-bend in a mast does two things; it helps set the mast to fit the mainsail you have, and it makes the mast more stable by reducing mast pumping and giving it increased lateral stiffness. While you can induce some pre-bend with just shroud tension that is really not an option unless the rig has swept aft shrouds and spreaders. In a Capri 25 you would have to have the cap shrouds extremely tight to really induce pre-bend and that is not recommended because having the caps that tight would then require having both lowers set up very tight to keep the middle of the mast from sagging to leeward as the wind increases; and having them that tight would greatly limit how much control you have of mast bend.
With in-line cap shrouds pre-bend is induced by having a fulcrum that the mast is bent around, either chocks in the mast partner with a keel stepped mast or the forward lower shrouds with a deck stepped mast. To measure pre-bend you have to pull on the back stay just enough to take the slack out of the headstay. With the backstay just tensioned you can make the forward lowers tighter until you get the amount of pre-bend you want. After setting the forward lowers the backstay is used to control both headstay tension and mast bend, and the aft lowers are used to control how much mast bend you will get. As the wind increases your headstay will sag more and make the genoa fuller. This is countered by pulling the backstay tighter which increases the headstay tension and decreases the headstay sag. At the same time it bends the mast more which flattens the mainsail. However you will quickly reach the point where the mast is bent as far as it can go without distorting the mainsail and making it too flat, and that will limit how much tension you can get on the headstay. The aft lower shrouds counter this bending component by limiting how far the middle of the mast can bend forward. They need to be set up tight enough so that they keep the mast from over bending for you mainsail when the backstay is pulled on to its maximum.
Just a note on pre-bend; class rules limit the mid-girth of the main, how wide it can be across the middle. If you build a sail for more pre-bend the sail has to have more luff curve to fit the bend. For every inch of luff curve you add to the front of the sail you have to move the leech roach in an inch to keep the mid-girth the same. Since leech area adds much more performance in helm balance, pointing, and off the wind exposed sail area we build our mains with a minimum of luff curve and as much roach as we can. Our sails are designed to have only ½” to ¾” of pre-bend, just enough to stop the mast from pumping too much.
Harry Pattison

Edited by - on

joearcht
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2008 : 11:38:45

Thanks Everyone, great information
I think i've got it now.
I still don't know what my North main is designed for, but at least I have a starting point for some controlled and measured experimentation.
I've still got some very old EP sails that I think came originally on my boat.
I'm going to lay the EP main over the North and see if I can draw any conclusions about pre-bend and roach.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.