Association Forum - A Long Hisory Of the International Association

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

A Long Hisory Of the International Association

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 3

Peregrine
Admiral

Member Avatar

830 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/01/2009 : 20:00:24

Unlike Jim's closed and narrow history, this is an open thread for all current and past members to recall what has brought us to where we are.
We are one of the most active Catalina Associations, probably second only to the C-22's.
It has been a long and at times tumultuous journey.
All of us share a love of sailing and want a place that peers can can tap into a vast knowledge base as well as a sense of camaraderie.
By comparing our history we can see how to navigate the future.

John Gisondi
Peregrine #4762

*

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5372 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2009 : 21:11:19

Randy and All --
I am glad I found the Association a few years back, and am very appreciative of the good advice, good natured joking and in-depth information provided here, and I'm glad to be a member. I think we have an awesome group, albeit whenever there are people, there will be politics, and sometimes they are unpleasant.

I'm hopeful we can vote with our feet, and if we find an opinion or point of view not to our liking, we can choose to completely ignore it.

It's a free country so everybody gets a chance to have their say [although locking the entry is childish]. I'm grateful to the founders of this group, much the same that I admire the founders of our country.

But then there was that incident with Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton!

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2009 : 21:31:06

Like Jim, I too never sailed more than a sunfish until I decided to move up...and while researching options stumbled upon this site and subsequently choose to find a C25 to own.

The support of the membership is invaluable - the collective knowledge and camaraderie has without question accelerated my learnings, enhanced my experience and provided a safer and more pleasurable experience for myself and my family.

The volunteer leadership of this association has long demonstrated great commitment and selfless effort in their contributions to make this site run as well as it does - it's fairly unanimous among members we are peerless in our organization. This would not be possible without the invaluable and generous efforts of our officers.

I suggest we all owe them a hearty dept of gratitude - without reserve.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2009 : 21:33:55

Bruce, I deleted my post after realizing that all this "history" stuff is just a bottomless pit with no end. But then I saw your post referred to mine and it seemed weird to have mine gone. See what this discussion does!

This is a great forum HERE AND NOW and I don't give a hoot about the history dramas that seems to have played out and continue to play out.

I like your idea to vote with our feet. My feet are outa this discussion.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

Members Avatar

830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2009 : 22:24:29

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 06:33:58

First it was C25 Observer and now some sort of rare bird that has his panties in a bunch? Go somewhere else. Buy a MacGreggor or a Hunter, or grow up. I find it hilarious that folks with axes to grind continue to demonstrate their lack of intelligence by attempting to slander those whose contribution was once made.

Write a book, start your own blog, go hang out with C25 Observer and see if you two are meant for each other. If you are so misaligned by the organization, why participate? The internet is a wonderful place for adolescent boys who can hide behind their keyboards and pretend that they have not lost their testicles. See a doctor, perhaps you can get a emergency testicle transplant - at least then you will have one!

sten - that is my name
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Fernandina Beach FL - that is my vessel and that is where I am - no identity crisis like yours
DPO Zephyr - C25 #3220 - FK, SR

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 07:08:49

We have a rule on this forum that prohibits a member from launching personal attacks on another member. The penalty for violation is expulsion from the forum. John G has already been expelled for making repeated personal attacks, but, in a breathtaking lapse of good judgment, somebody decided to let him return. The officer(s) who made that decision apparently don't even have the moral courage to step forward and admit their lapse in judgment. Since his return, John G's practice of personally attacking others has resumed. It was glaringly evident in the recently locked and deleted thread, in which he launched a gratuitous attack on me, completely unrelated to the subject being discussed, and he turned a very positive thread into one so ugly that the officers decided to delete it for the good of the Association.

This is an ugly, unpleasant occurrence, but it isn't going to go away by ignoring it. Although it might result in more unpleasantness in the short term, somebody is going to have to take the situation in hand and resolve it. This is your forum and your Association. If you are willing to allow one person to blatantly disregard your rule against personal attacks, then there will most assuredly be more personal attacks, and the air of comraderie that has long characterized this forum will disappear, to be replaced by the kind of sniping that exists on other forums.

We are past the point of giving John G a "stern warning" and "one last chance." He had that chance when he was reinstated after having been expelled previously. If he didn't get the messasge that was sent when he was expelled for his personal attacks, he'll never get it.

There are bound to be a handful of members who support John for reasons satisfactory to themselves, and some who just want the ugliness to go away, and some who don't know John's history or who don't trust the accounting of it, but I believe the majority of members can see what John is doing to the Forum, and there are enough who remember John's history, and who care enough to want to protect the forum and the Association from his unacceptable behavior.

If you care about this Association and this forum, you'll realize that John G is taking it down a dark corridor to a place where none of us want to go, and you'll insist that your rule against personal attacks be enforced by his expulsion. This is not a time for indecision or doubt. It isn't likely to happen unless you insist on it. If you want this behavior to stop, please make your wishes known to your officers by private email, as I expect they will be discussing it soon.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 09:03:21

Rather than send private e-mail I will make my pitch to the Officers here.

Yes, do enforce the "no personal attacks" rule including one that is in this thread. Be vigilant in monitoring the forums and when you see a personal attack delete it immediately. If the person continues this practice then kick him/her out. Don't use your own authority to post your view of the world and then lock the thread.

This is a terrific Association and online resource that is 99% positive. We owe it to ourselves to keep it positive and not rise to the bait when someone tries to lead us astray.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

Members Avatar

830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 09:30:14

To paraphrase Gertrude "The Past Commodore protests too much, methinks"
470 words worth to boot.
My posts on this thread are all positive.
I would have thought that the past commodore could provide valuable history.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 09:30:40

John G launched a personal attack on me and I have asked that the appropriate penalty for that attack be enforced. There can be no dispute as to that fact, because we all read his attack for ourselves.

In asking the association, it's officers and it's members to enforce it's rules, I referred to John's past expulsion. That is a fact that even John does not and cannot dispute. He was in fact expelled for attacking other members. His continuing attacks, that we have all seen, make it clear that his behavior in that respect has not been corrected.

While John was under suspension, that kind of behavior on the forum was practically nonexistent.

If you are willing to accept that behavior on your forum, that is a choice you are entitled to make. If you do not accept that behavior, you cannot sit silently and allow it to happen.

In asking for the association to enforce it's rule, I have not made a personal attack on John. I have simply asked the association to do it's duty under the rules. There is no diplomatic way to say that the rules have been violated by a certain person and to ask that he be expelled. If you can't raise the issue without violating the rule, then the rule can never be enforced. If, however, the association believes that I have violated the rule in doing so, then feel free to expel me as well as John. It will be a small price to pay to put an end to this conduct, for the good of the association.

Edited by - on

Oksky
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Canada
40 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 09:57:31

At one time I belonged to an excellent forum from a skydive association that I belong to. Not any more. The reason, however helpful the other members were, was the rules were not enforced for a persnal vendeta one particular member seemed to hold against others. This infected others to act the same way. End result, the forum is no where near what it was and many of the participants simply quit using it to avoid the conflicts. History can be learned from of course, but not with personal attacks on each other. Poison spreads.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 10:35:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Yes, do enforce the "no personal attacks" rule including one that is in this thread. We owe it to ourselves to keep it positive and not rise to the bait when someone tries to lead us astray.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If that was a reference to my post, please be advised that I do not know who Peregrine is and for all I know he is a disgruntled former member who is using the internet improperly. Not a "personal attack" as far as I am concerned. No bait, no anger, just too much drama. WHY? Fulfills no useful purpose as far as I am concerned - go ahead, delete it and lock it or me down. Whatever, again too much drama. I just wish that the people with axes to grind would take it elsewhere - and yes, grow a pair.

sten - and I approved this message - back to sailing

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 11:07:25

I see no attacks from John. No name calling, no threats. Yes, he does not approve of Frank, Duane, or some of my decisions. I am open to criticism, I can take it. So can Frank, he's a stand up guy in my opinion. Duane is too. John and Steve don't get along. Nothing new there. You don't like his tone, that is not a flickable offense. No one has shown me a personal attack.

John Gisondi has served this association as Mainsheet General Editor, and continues to do so as C25 Technical Editor. I do not see cause to flick him. Officers will discuss the matter at the April meeting.

Maybe we should rename this thread Catalina 25 Anarchy. I don't want us to become that website!

Meanwhile, bickering between John and Steve serves no one any good so please take it offline.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 11:25:36

Yes - please take it outside.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 12:47:09

Amen. Well said Jim.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 13:40:02

Jim,

Have you read the 11/10/2006 post on the blog? I was under the impression that (the entire blog) needed to "go away" prior to readmission to the web forum.

Incidentally, what was the vote of the officers to allow him to return to posting in the forum? If I recall the ban was unanimous.

Edited by - Champipple on 04/02/2009 13:40:46

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 14:51:04

John was re-admitted during the time when I was out of office.

Whatever John has on his personal web site is not our business, anymore that what I have on www.indiscipline.org is yours. Yes, I did ask John to take his web site C25 Observer down, as I found it offensive. I assumed it was. I don't visit the site.

I define "personal attack" as name calling, slander, libel, using hate words, on this site and in PMs, not merely disagreement.

I deleted the "Why only us" post because someone complained, the fact that I deleted it does not imply any guilt on any party.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 15:50:10

It's well past the time when someone should have told us all exactly what deal was made with John, including all it's terms and conditions, verbatim. I certainly hope the people who negotiated it had the good sense to commit it to writing, so that, whatever was agreed to is enforceable. Perhaps those people, who have thus far declined to make their identities known, will step forward and share that important information with us.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 16:30:32

Water under the bridge.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 17:52:48

The problem with forums is that some of the people using them have a false sense of immunity being anonymous behind a keyboard. The only reason I see for someone attacking or trying to instigate a fight is that they are bored and get some kind of kick insulting other people. The idea is that if you wouldn't act like this in real life, then don't do it on a forum. Like in real life if you have a problem with a decision, situation or other then there are ways to address it in a proper and respectable fashion that will bring far greater results.

I think I speak for most when saying that sailing is an activity we all enjoy and relax with, so why should we tolerate the deliberate poisoning of the pleasure of 99.9% of members because of only a few individuals that have nothing better to do than be aggressive and thrilled about creating such unpleasant situations? It's too bad but it's a fact of life, you will always get these individuals in groups and even more so on forums. The only cure is to expedite them out swiftly after a short vote on the matter. Such people are empowered by others who tolerate there behavior where the problem only grows. Once they are done with their desctructivness they go back to being bored with a sense of "something's missing" and seek out another group only to start all over again.

Yesterday I unsubscribe from the Sailing Anarchy newsletter because all it was continuous bitching having practically nothing to do with sailing.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 18:55:23

I could go into great detail regarding many things....anyone interested start with the blog and take it from there.

Instead I will cite only 1 thing. This thread had potential to be something rather great. Instead of leading off with something along the lines of "Building on Jims thread" or similar, this thread started with

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Unlike Jim's closed and narrow history<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Additionally - The quote above "those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it" so appropriate on many levels

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2009 : 06:42:08

I agree that this is water over the dam, and nothing good will come from harping on it any further. I disagree with Jim's notion that the material in John's blog is none of our business. The articles that he writes reveal a great deal about his attitude towards the officers and members of the association, as well as his perceived relationship with them.

If you google "Catalina 25 Association," John's blog will be listed. Anyone who is looking for information about the Catalina 25 National Association will find his blog, which inaccurately represents the association and it's officers and members.

Read John's blog for yourself, and think about whether the author is a person who should hold any office, either appointed or elected, in this association.

The following hyperlink will take you to his blog:

http://c25-250-observer.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00:00:00-05:00& updated-max=2007-01-01T00:00:00-05:00& max-results=17

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2009 : 07:42:41

The lyrics to "To much time on my hands" by Styx circa 1980

Sitting on this barstool talking like a damn fool
Got the twelve o'clock news blues
And I've given up hope on the afternoon soaps
And a bottle of cold brew
Is it any wonder I'm not crazy? Is it any wonder I'm sane at all
Well I'm so tired of losing- I got nothing to do and all day to do it
I go out cruisin' but I've no place to go and all night to get there
Is it any wonder I'm not a criminal?
Is it any wonder I'm not in jail?
Is it any wonder I've got

Too much time on my hands, it's ticking away with my sanity
I've got too much time on my hands, it's hard to believe such a calamity
I've got too much time on my hands and it's ticking away from me
Too much time on my hands, too much time on my hands
Too much time on my hands

Well, I'm a jet fuel genius - I can solve the Association's problems
Without even trying
I have a couple of friends and the fun never ends
That is, as long as I'm buying
Is it any wonder I'm not the Commodore?
(He's not the president)
Is it any wonder I'm null and void?
Is it any wonder I've got

Too much time on my hands, it's ticking away at my sanity
I've got too much time on my hands, it's hard to believe such a calamity
I've got too much time on my hands and it's ticking away from me
Too much time on my hands, too much time on my hands
Too much time on my hands

sten
North - 30* 40.236
West - 081* 28.133

Edited by - redviking on 04/03/2009 07:53:56

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2009 : 08:25:52

Well, after reading The Observer's recent blogs I have to say he's a very angry sort. For what reason I don't know. Actually I do know one reason. Change is hard to swallow, most of us don't like it. One problem in my opinion is the Observer is having is trouble with the fact that communication is moving from the written page to the cyber world. There's proof of this by all the news papers that are folding. The Mainsheet was his baby and it's hard to let go.
This Catalina International Association is an awesome tool for Catalina 25/250/Capri owners. The Main Sheet is great and I like getting the publication but the internet IS the future of communication, it's how so many boat owners are able to connect, exchange ideas and solve problems in real time. WHO EVER might be commodore would be swayed in this direction.
As far as the personal attacks and name calling I saw on the Observers blog, I find it laughable at totally contrary to anything positive, building or useful. I mean, who HASN'T been helped by the experience and knowledge of Dave Bristle, Frank Hopper or Jim Baumgart? Enough said, have a good week-end!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2009 : 08:48:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...I disagree with Jim's notion that the material in John's blog is none of our business.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I will add the "observation" that during the period when "Peregrine" was banned from the forums, the anonymous "C-25 Observer" appeared, and included direct links to his anonymous blog in posts in this forum, thereby making it part of the discourse here. No attacks in the forum itself? That's a pretty fine distinction. Draw your own conclusions.

Also during that exile period, "C-25 Observer" used our association e-mail facility to send anonymous flame-mails to people who questioned or disagreed with his "observations". How do I know?? (I'll probably get one now.) After all of that, "Peregrine" is reinstated...

Meanwhile, our members have had to challenge C-25 Observer's assertions about this association and its current and past leaders on other forums--Trailersailor, Sailboatowners, etc... wherever he thinks he has an audience.

Over the dam, under the bridge... it keeps on flowing. Long and tumultuous, indeed.

Edited by - on

Don B
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2009 : 09:41:55

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-internet-troll.htm

"In some cases, a troll becomes a recurring figure who is well known by long-term members of a bulletin board. The individuals often tell newcomers to the community to ignore the troll, who may use various tactics to get a rise from newbies. In more serious cases, an Internet troll may try to drive a wedge through a community, often with the assistance of sock puppet accounts. A sock puppet is a fake identity which is used by someone who does not want to post under his or her regular name; some trolls have multitudes of sock puppets to make their side of an argument look like it has a large number of supporters."

Edited by - on

Page: of 3

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.