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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Capri 25 vs J 22

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leebitts
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122 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/25/2009 : 20:32:57

There's a J22 that I compete with in my phrf fleet. I was watching closely tonight and it looks like he can point about 10 degrees higher than me. I have a capri 25. Does that sound right?

LeeBitts
1981 Capri 25 Hull # 142
Sailing in NH and Maine

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/26/2009 : 06:51:34

The Capri 25 is nearing 30 years old. A lot of technology has been developed during that time with regard to materials, hull design, foil shapes, etc., and it would be surprising if a new, near state-of-the art boat couldn't out-perform a 30-year-old boat. Nevertheless, even by modern standards, the Capri 25 is regarded as a very good and exciting boat to race.

The question, as I understand it, is whether a J22 can [efficiently] outpoint a Capri 25 by 10 degrees, given equally skilled crew - I don't see how. To do so, the J22 would have to be able to sail to weather efficiently at an angle in the lower 30 degree range. As I recall, that's about the sailing angle that can be achieved by the Volvo Ocean Racers. One of the reasons why the VOR boats can point so high is because they can achieve exceptionally high speeds. Without such speeds, they lose pointing ability. As a matter of physics, a 22' sailboat can't achieve the same speeds as a 70' Maxi boat, and it can't point as high.

Nevertheless, a J22 certainly <u>should</u> be able to outpoint a Capri 25, but not by anywhere near 10 degrees.

<b>Edit: Out of curiosity I just checked the Chesapeake Bay PHRF ratings for the J22 and Capri 25. The J22 is rated 174 - The Capri 25 is rated 174. (Both ratings were with 155% headsails.) Hmmmm... Not bad for a 30 year old design.</b>

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/01/2009 13:01:11

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 13:36:13

There are many ways it can look like a fellow boat is pointing higher than you:

(1) he may be better at scalloping (steering a course alternatively heading up and falling off a little)

(2) he has newer sails, flatter jib and main, tighter sheeting angles

(3) maybe he is sailing on the lifted side of the course

(4) maybe you are not rig tuned and set up for your best pointing

(5) perhaps he has a templated keel, long boarded bottom, wet sanded and polished, and you have 2 year old bottom paint

I really doubt that the max race prepared J22 can outpoint the max race prepared Capri 25 by 10 degrees.

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2009 : 07:10:37

Ok, I'm late chiming in here - but work has been busy.

Yes, they can point higher. But 10' sounds too high.

Here in CO I'm the only CP25 that races (there are 1-2 others in the state, but none actively racing these days). I regularly race PHRF against J/22s, and the better ones on the course DO outpoint us (not 10' higher, tho sometimes I admit it sure looks that way!). However, we're a tad faster so the VMG typically nets out pretty close upwind.

The advantage goes to the CP25 downwind with the much bigger kite, and as such we rate 173 here where a J/22 rates 180.

Re the same ratings with 155% genoas, remember that the J/22 is a frac rig while the CP25 is masthead. A 155% on the CP25 is a much bigger sail than a 155% on a J/22. Also, I think the J/22 just has 1 size headsail for class OD racing and it's not 155%.

But back to comparing the J/22 and CP25 - the CP25 is what I call a "front-wheel drive" boat, it's drive upwind comes from the headsail and relies on the main for balance. The J/22 is a "rear-wheel drive" boat - it's drive is from the main and the jib is used for balance. As such, with the power coming in behind the CR of the keel, it will point higher than the CP25. But the CP25's longer waterline and more sail area give her more speed, thus a comparable VMG.

On the water, we're about neck-neck with the well-sailed J/22s upwind and it's a struggle for them to keep up with us downwind (tho I admit that unfortunately sometimes they do!).

Net results - We have 9 J/22s that race with us in the combined fleet for Wed night series (The Div1 boats are scored both by OD fleet and combined PHRF). In the Spring the top Js went 1st, 2nd, 5th and we were 6th (we missed a race). In the summer we were 3rd and the J/22s went 4, 5, and 7 (the 5th place J missed a race).

So yeah, they point higher but the CP25 is competitive in PHRF with the J/22.

Edited by - on

leebitts
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Response Posted - 07/10/2010 : 14:36:57

I feel pretty stupid, guess I'm a slow learner. I went to basics this year and tuned my rigging as well as I could. The J22 in our fleet can out point me but not by much. Problem last year was lack of tuning

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.