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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing Keel Attachment

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GeorgeWeisman
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/15/2010 : 04:53:16

So, among the other issues i have, the one of greatest concern is re-attaching a keel that was ripped from boat. In a nut shell; I'm told that the winch cable broke, they limped into the slip with the keel dragging. The marina, not understanding the make-up of the boat, attempted to drag the boat out of the slip, dislodging the keel. suprisingly the only thing that gave way was one of the 4 threaded Weldments, and the fiber glass around it, which i'm sure took alot of force. There are three mounts in good shape, and from what i can see the trunk was not damaged at all. I am going to grind out the area for a new weldment and use...? Fiberglass Repair, West System Epoxy or Marine Tex? Or a possible combination. I can see where the old one was, the groove is still evident.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2010 : 12:48:48

Yikes!

Well, George, let me first say how much I admire your ambition!

Let me also say (in a non-critical tone) your naivete is really hanging out here!

A couple-three-four-five-six bullets:

Marine-Tex and fiberglass are two different animals - way different.

When fiberglass is damaged (especially in a structural area) it has to be ground down and feathered out - then you build that area back up with several layers of fiberglass (each piece being slightly larger than the last) until you're at original surface height. Then sand smooth and apply gel coat (gel coat itself being a bit of an art form.)

What you describe is a tricky fix because of the varying heights, right angles and integral metal hardware involved - certainly not for novices!

I think a good place to start would be to send some close-up pix to kent@catalinayachts.com and ask his opinion on how this repair should be performed. I think you will quickly discover this one is over most peoples heads.

If your situation allows, I'd be inclined to get at least two or three boatyards to look at it and see how closely their recommendation compares to Kent's. There are a lot of boatyard hacks out there.

If I am underestimating your skill level, then I would talk with the extremely knowledgable, helpful and passionate guys at West System. They will provide very expert advice on technique and product.

I could be misinterpreting the description of the damage but I think you'll be surprised what's going to be involved in repairing this damage - the right way.

Heck, it might be time to consider converting to a wing!

Keep us posted! If they're not too graphic - share some pix!

Edited by - OJ on 05/15/2010 17:38:56

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2010 : 19:49:39

It really sounds like it's time for a wing conversion. the weldments are threaded holes attached to a strip of metal at the top and must be completely ground out. The strip of metal is what keeps them from turning. You have a ton of fiberglass to grind away and then build back up while keeping the left and right properly aligned and the correct distance apart. I wouldn't suggest this repair for anyone but an expert. If you do decide to do it, I have a new pair of keel hanger castings that you are welcome to. I got three of them at auction for $15 each, if memory serves me. Best of luck,
Ed

Edited by - on

GeorgeWeisman
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2010 : 11:17:39

I am not trying to hide my lack of knowledge when it comes to sailing and all the other fun things that come along with it. I am new to the scene. But i got into this understanding that this was going to be challenge and being a woodworker by trade, i do have a decent pair of hands, good resources and a willingness to learn and do the right thing. I have all the new hardware needed, but thank you for the offer. I'll take some pictures and seek the advice of Kent. I'll try to post them here as well to get as many opinions as possible. Thanks.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2010 : 13:53:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GeorgeWeisman
 . . . being a woodworker by trade, i do have a decent pair of hands, good resources and a willingness to learn and do the right thing . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Great assets!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">. . . I'll take some pictures and seek the advice of Kent. I'll try to post them here as well to get as many opinions as possible . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Great approach!

The tech support guys at West System are super!
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2010 : 15:32:26

George W,

Could you please post some photos of the damaged area? Or sketches of the damage? I don't want to make too bold and precise an assessment without more specific info. Also contact the Catalina factory for consultation, and get a copy of their standard repair instructions for damaged swing keel weldments. (Yours are not the first...)

With a clearer understanding of the damage, I might be able to suggest a relatively painless approach to repairing it. (Less painful for instance than installing a wing keel.)

I apologize in advance for seeming to disagree with those advocating a rush to wing keel conversion. Any kid who has fooled around with paper mache is well on their way to doing fiberglass repair. It ain't rocket science.

Maintaining adequate alignment of the swing keel support holes need not be difficult. Any remaining wall of the original holes, and of the crossbar seating surface, can serve to locate a new weldment. The weldments are undoubtedly jig-welded, so aligning one leg goes a long way towards aligning both. A temporary wooden jig could be fabricated to position the new weldment (locate the holes, really) in the absence of any reliable contact points in the remaining original fiberglass. The alignment of the keel hanger bearings doesn't require race engine precision tolerances.

If the swing keel took a foot diameter chunk of hull with it as it left, then I'd say you're looking at a major repair. If there's anything remaining of any original attachment point, the rest of the repair is just patience, technique, grinding dust, scissors, and slathering resin (and probably some contortion).

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2010 : 07:52:40

George, if you repair the swing keel you will be wise to listen to Leon. Were I you I would try to establish a personal email contact with him.

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2010 : 10:55:15

There are always a number of different approaches to life’s little pot holes. About 18 years ago we had a similar problem when the winch failed and let the keel slam the trunk. In our case there was damage to the trunk (as in taking on water). The original keel mounts and surrounding glass on the port side were destroyed. At this point we had the boat for 2 weeks, and now the insurance company was totaling it. So we took there check and decided to fix it ourselves. First we needed to remove a portion of the inner liner so we could access the trunk. When I say we, that means I got to help a professional do the job. Next we (no this part should say “I”) took a sawsall and cut, and ground the damaged area out. Imagine looking down at your drive way from inside your salon.
Most of us have never seen the system that Catalina used to attach the keel bolts on a swinger. All it is, is a long nut welded to a small strip of thin stainless (maybe 1/16”). This is then embedded into the hull. This anchoring system literally fell out of the amputated chunk of shattered hull.
I am convinced that any fiber glass damage can be repaired, if done right. We now needed to reconstruct the hull, so the glass was built up the way Steve described, but here is where we changed the keel mount design. Instead of the original embedded nuts that you would thread the bolt into. This bolt holds the pillow block. I took 1 ½” stainless flat stock that was a ¼” thick, (A chain plate from a 48 footer). Don’t remember how long the plate was, but it was longer then the span of the block. It was drilled so that 2 stainless bolts could be inserted in it. I then had the heads of the bolts tack welded to the flat stock. This unit was then installed so that the bolts protruded out of the bottom of the hull. Same concept as the studs you have on your car wheel. The next step was to completely embed the unit in glass (the process uses a number of different types of glass sheeting, from matt to woven) Finally we set up the other side the same way.
The installation of my keel uses the same pillow block and pin, but now I have a nut instead of a bolt to secure the pillow blocks. This has worked flawlessly over the years, even when we removed the keel to have some work done on it

Edited by - on

GeorgeWeisman
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2010 : 08:51:14

To me it looks like there was not any structural damage done to the trunk. I have the old pin and it is bent like a boomarang which leads me to beleive that it absorbed some or most of the force as the boat was being pulled from the slip. I can actually slip the new weldment into the groove of the dislodged weldment and it fits nicely. I can even attach the brass hanger to it and it supports the weight. Since i am at work now, the beat i can do is attach a sketch of whats going on. Again, only one of the 4 weldments is missing. The others seem to be in good shape and accept the new bolts with no problem. I cant figure out how to attach files to this post. I can email them if i had your address.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2010 : 09:42:12

Here's instructions for posting pix to the forum:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2623

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2010 : 15:10:16

George I think you can probably do this repair. (Not having seen your pics.) I was concerned about corrosion in two of my weldments and cut them out and replaced them. I also discovered a crack in the forward end of the keel trunk and I ground it out, discovering there were gaps in the fiberglass along the opening and back about two feet.
I read Don Casey's chapter on fiberglass repair and also west Marine's "how to" DVD. Also read info from this forum of course. After a lot of work it came out looking pretty good.
I had very little experience and managed it so anyone could. Just ask questions and read up on it.

Edited by - on

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