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masthead work coming up, what else should I plan?

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Initially Posted - 04/10/2012 : 09:56:21

I'm probably dropping my mast this weekend. Here is what is on my todo list:
* new masthead sheaves (unless the existing ones are in good shape and 5/16" rope halyards fit on them). I have these on hand already from CD.
* new all-rope halyards
* new VHF antenna and Windex AV
* new mast step baseplate from Catalina Direct
* install CD topping lift kit

I plan on using these instructions to drop the mast, unless anyone local (Seattle) has experience doing it a better way and wouldn't mind helping (I'll supply pizza and beer):
http://catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/bsmast.asp

Questions:
* My anchor light bulb is also dead. What type of bulb does it take, I'd like to have the right LED on hand for it.
* I know that I need to make slots in the top and bottom of the mast for my VHF cable, or need to run it externally. Is there a trick here at the mast head for the wiring? Does anyone run it external, or is it always run internally? I'm somewhat tempted to skip this part of the install for now and just mount the antenna and Windex and run the cable another time using a Bosun's chair.
* What else should I be ready for and what hardware do I want to have on hand? Are the pins that the sheaves run over something that I'll want to replace?

The good news is that Fisheries Supply is a 10 minute drive away if I do have any sudden needs come up. I'd prefer to have everything on hand though, so that the mast doesn't stay down for too long and the same friends who help me get it down can also help me raise it again.

Alex W
Seattle, WA
Express 37 "re-Quest"
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra"

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 10:27:53

I would certainly replace the anchor light and steamer with LED's. Get a whole new light assembly if you have to. Fix those lights up real good...clean them, replace them, whatever it takes to make them "new".

Optional - I would install deck lights at the base of the spreaders. (I already have a new 4 wire mast wire harness from CD, and a new canon plug)

I would install a little pulley on the starboard spreader, bottom, midway, to use as a place to fly the C25 Association Burgee.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 10:57:28

With the mast down, you might as well give the standing rigging the once over. Replace the spreader boots in needed. As to the sheaves, since you already have new ones on hand, I'd put them in and keep the old ones as spares rather than keeping the new ones as the spares. I had a sheave break on me one time that resulted in a halyard jam. Not fun.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 11:04:34

Ditto replacing the masthead light. If it is like mine, it is an Agua Signal Series 25 light. If the current wiring is good, you might be able to get away with replacing the bulb and lens only, keeping the base for a later changeout. The fixture takes a festoon bulb with, if I remember correctly, dimpled ends not protruding end caps (inneys not outys!). Check your light after the mast is down to be certain.
If you had wire-to-rope halyards, the sheaves will have to be replaced to go all rope. The sheave pins should not need replacement, just a good wipe down. A 9 volt battery can be used to test the mast lights.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/10/2012 11:08:46

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 11:10:46

Alex,
I can give you a hand this weekend.

I recommend getting Imtra LED lights to replace your originals. I think your boat uses Aqua Signal 25 fixtures. Be aware that there are two types of festoon bulbs, "dimpled", and "pointy". My new fixtures came with "pointy" bulbs when my old ones used dimpled. I'd bought all new dimpled LEDs so I elected to keep the old hardware and only replace the lenses. The Imtra bulbs are half the price of Dr. LED equivalents and have better technology (IMHO).

Do you have a cable snake to pull the VHF cable through the mast? Or possibly you already have pull lines installed? Mine had one, I ran two extras. I bought a 500' roll of thin construction nylon line to make the pulls with.

Why are you making slots for the VHF cable? I'd think a simple drilled hole with a grommet should be sufficient?

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 11:30:18

I have a cable snake.

I thought that slots would make it easier to have the cable do the 90 degree bend into the mast (plus in my other thread about antennas that seemed to be the recommendation). What does the C-25 mast cross section look like?

The other nav lights on our boat have been Aquasignal 25 with dimpled ends, so I'm guessing these will too. I'll get bulbs and lenses. I think Fisheries Supply has both Doctor Led and Imtra bulbs.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 12:14:13

How big is that lake?! Why bother with an antenna on top of the mast?

Check the stay swages.

Edited by - pastmember on 04/10/2012 12:15:55

awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 12:21:29

We can be on Puget Sound in about an hour via the ship canal, and plan on doing some short coastal cruising this year and a much longer (month+) trip next. You are correct that Lake Union is tiny, a full lap doesn't take much more than 20 minutes. We mostly go the other direction on the ship canal and sail around Lake Washington (which is pretty sizeable, it is easy to spend most of a day out there).

Edited by - awetmore on 04/10/2012 12:31:29

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 12:55:17

Might as well clean the mast slot then give it a spray of dry silicone lubricant. Clean and spray the masthead clevis pins too.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 14:31:49

Alex:

I'm managing one of the precinct polling places in today's Special Election here, so I'm limited in what I can provide at the moment, but I'll post a few images tomorrow night.

Where the antenna cable exits the mast (if you run it internally) it's advisable to avoid sharp bends. What happens is the braid gets spread-out around the outer side of the curve, allowing more signal leakage (and interference intrusion). Doing an S-curve to pass through a smallish round hole is twice as bad. It's not a lot, I'd imagine, but it might make a difference in marginal situation. That's why an elongated hole is better.

To remove the antenna (and the Windex) for trailering I put them both on a short length of stainless steel angle stock fastened to the truck by two screws. Unscrewing those two screws allows easy removal of the antenna and the Windex together (after disconnecting the antenna cable).

For snaking the cable and the halyards through the mast, I made a little wooden sled with screw-eyes screwed into the aft end. This keeps the lines sorted so they don't become twisted around each other as they're pulled through (creating friction when you go to hoist the sails).

One of the complications I ran into was the compression tube around the middle (lower) bolt holding the lower shroud tangs. The upper two through-bolts could come out, but I didn't want to "lose" the compression tube by removing that middle bolt. That compression tube, however, is a lot wider than the bolt: it seems to be about 1" or so, and its free to drop toward whichever side of the mast is down on the bench. This restricts the area beneath it.

Ideally, you'd have the main halyard pass this bolt on its aft side and the jib halyard pass on the forward side.

Adding to the complexity are the other two (upper) bolts securing the lower shroud tangs. Removing them provides more room for passing this congested area, but before you reinstall them you'd have to give thought to where gravity has positioned the lines and the compression tube while the mast is on the bench.

Another issue is the narrow space between one of those upper bolts (the aft one) and the inside of the mainsail track: it's just slightly less than the 5/16" diameter of the main halyard (especially after it loosens-up with age). This can cause the halyard to partially bind, adding more friction. So, the main halyard should pass this upper aft bolt on its forward side, and then pass the middle (lower) bolt on its aft side (snaking between them).

On the other hand, if the jib halyard snakes through between the middle (lower) bolt and the forward upper bolt, the two halyards are pressing against opposite sides of the wide compression tube, forcing them both into S-curves. Therefore, the jib halyard wants to pass the forward side of BOTH the upper and lower bolts.

The wire cable going to the steaming light also wants to pass forward of both bolts, because it exits the mast just above this congested area. But an existing cable might not have been routed that way, so it might be crossing from behind those bolts to the exit point on the front of the mast.

In order to avoid lines becoming wound around each other it's best to pull them all at once (in two batches: one passing forward of the middle lower shroud tang bolt and the other passing aft of it, rotating the mast on the bench in between to use gravity to assist).

Confused yet? Good! I'm stuck here from 6AM until about 8:30 tonight, and with the day now half gone we've had a stupendous total of 21 voters come through, so I've got nothing better to do.

I'll be too exhausted to post those images tonight, but I laid-out the mast cross-section in CAD and I've got photos of that "sled" and the truck bracket that might give you some ideas of your own. I'll get them posted tomorrow evening after work (California time).

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 15:11:38

Hi Lee,

Thanks for all of the great info. I'm going to keep my halyards external. If I do that it sounds like there is tons of room inside the mast for the VHF cable and lighting cable, is that correct?

Internal halyards seem nice, but that is a project for another year.

alex

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 16:11:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lee Panza
 Without running the strings down the inside you'll have plenty of room for the wires. So much room, in fact, that there's another issue to consider: others have reported annoying noise from the cables slapping the insides of the mast, and they recommend using triplets of nylon zip-ties (radiating outward from the wires) to keep them centered. I don't know how much of a problem that actually is, but I'm hoping that a cluster of polyester "linear cushions" running the whole length will help mitigate that.

OK, I got to take a break from the boredom, and I've uploaded one of the CAD sketches showing the cross-section at those three bolts holding the tangs for the lower shrouds (not showing the compression tube). Let's see if I can post it (this also shows the dimensions of the "sled" I made to drag a bundle of lines at once; after I rolled the mast over, so the lines were draped over the middle bolt, I slid the outer bolt in place to capture the lines between them).

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 21:50:51

To prevent the wires banging around inside the mast (that sound like halyards slapping), you may want to push some foam tubes (like for the hot water pipe) up inside the mast AFTER you insert the wiring. This should keep the clanking down to a dull roar. Others use three tie-wraps around every 2-3 ft of cable without the ends cut off to act as a standoff for the cable.

For the steaming light, you'd be just as well off with a conventional incandescent bulb (for $2) than a LED (for $30). Steaming means you're running your engine, so if you have an alternator, you needn't be worried about saving power with a LED. The anchor light is another story, as a 20W light running for 10 hours (in the Fall) will suck up 17AH against a 35 AH group 24 battery. A 500mA LED only uses 5AH.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/11/2012 : 05:15:34

<< unless the existing ones are in good shape and 5/16" rope halyards fit on them) >>

Yepper.. like Don said.. I'd put new sheaves in. They chip with age, but they also might look like they fit but the old ones ( if they were for wire ) are for 1/4 wire and would excessively wear the outside of your 5/16 line.

I got pretty overwhelmed when I did mine. running out of time, and me crew was less than optimal. Skallywags...

aAnyhoo.. I needed a cut off disk on a drill ( or a dremmel ) to cut out a pin holding the forstay .. had to cut the pin on the inside of the masthead to get it to drop out. A common story is hammering the pin and cracking the masthead.

I needed a lot of polysulfide to seal the underside of the mast plate. Rumor has it put a lot and let it harden up and cut it to trim if needed. I just left it.

Clean and lube the slide slot.

The wiring for my anchor light came up and out a small hole that was made in the masthead. Above that they tied a knot in the wiring with a washer below the knot. I did the same.

I forgot my fishtape and used the forstay as a fish. I essentially needed two fishes, one for the decklight combo and one for the anchor light line. The three way cableties really made the pull difficult. I wish I'd used smaller cableties and removed two of the mast bolts at the midstay.

Screwed in a screw in the top of the anchor light, and glued it in good and then dremmeled off the top of the screw to leave a spike. No birds will land on the light.

I wish I had added a spinnaker crane on the masthead.. or at least put my forstay on a pin farther aft and added a block frward that.

My biggest whoops was not watching my crew as we made the turn as they hit the boat beside me and bent one of the wind indicators on the windex which I did not notice till the mast was up..

Looks sloppy after all that work.

All great adventure.. looking forward to hoisting a friend climber up the mast to make any additional changes. I now have a better understanding of the complexity and the value of having experienced rigger involved.

Have fun and start early...

Edited by - redeye on 04/11/2012 05:20:46

awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 10:19:46

The antenna mounting may not happen this time around, unless both my antenna and cable show up by tomorrow. I could do that one by bosun's chair later on (or maybe this weekend will make me an expert at lowering the mast).

On the deck organizer plate, are the existing bolts that hold down the mast step typically long enough to handle the extra 1/8" plate thickness? Or should I plan on getting longer bolts? If so what are the bolt specs that I need? I'm using the CD plate.

What lube, if any, is typically used on the turnbuckles to avoid galling? I'm going to pick up some spare turnbuckle bodies to replace any that are in questionable condition.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 11:37:31

Good luck dropping the mast. I think (hope) you'll find that it isn't as bad as you thought it would be. I had the same trepidation when I went to drop mine. After only having done it once, I'm now deciding that certain repairs can wait, since I can "just" drop it again if needed.

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JohnP
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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 11:39:02

I thought I would just replace my anchor light bulb when I purchased my C-25, but it turned out there was not even a fixture at the masthead. I added one and to do the wiring I made extensive use of not only the electrical wiring chapter in Don Casey's book on sailboat maintenance but also a simple volt-ohm meter from Radio Shack.

The VOM has paid for itself a hundred times since then. I can use it for wire continuity/short testing, voltage testing of batteries in various devices, bulb testing, and other things. It was helpful to determine the status of the anchor light circuit from the switch panel to the mast and up to the masthead.

Last year I added a new steaming light with a deck light, and the VOM was invaluable again.

With the understanding of DC circuits gained from Casey's book I could handle all that stuff easily. Once you get the mast down, figuring out which wires actually connect to each thing is critical.

If you know about all this already, please excuse my rant.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 12:22:29

My voltmeter has lived on the boat since about day 2. I've already rewired a chunk of the boat and fixed up some scary wiring from a PO (plus just some simple stuff like moving the radio location).

Thanks for the heads up though, it is a good reminder not only for myself but others who may find the thread later through the archives.

There is a masthead light on my boat, it just doesn't work at the moment. It is probably a burned out bulb, but it could be another issue.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 08:21:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 There is a masthead light on my boat, it just doesn't work at the moment. It is probably a burned out bulb, but it could be another issue.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My steamer and anchor light are both non functional. I have brand new ones I bought from CD, but they came with halogen bulbs....okay for the steamer but I want an LED in the anchor. I also got a new wiring harness and cannon plug.

I tested my existing cannon plug, three prong:

Standing in the cabin, pop top up, facing the mast, the hole at 10:00 is ground, the hole at 2:00 is bow light (steamer) and 6:00 is anchor.

All switches off I get nothing or minimal stray current. (.085)

Anchor on, I get 13.08.
Steamer on I get 13.11
Both on I get nothing. (1.04)

So, they definitely don't work at the same time. Neither light works on the mast. It's probably a simple bulb replacement, but I have all original stuff up there. My steamer and anchor are vintage, hemispherical globe on teak donut original equipment...and the wiring at the mast cannon plug is pretty stiff. Even if it's just bulbs, it all needs to go.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 10:05:20

<< will I need longer bolts >>

Well on mine the bolts were fine as far as length. I still changed them out, but you have things like... sometimes they would cut the ends of the bolts off and leave a rough end.

You might find the bolts do not line up with the holes on the plate.. I'd bet you could drill the plate without a drill press if you have good carbide bits. I've been known to be wrong.

You'd probably need a good, big punch and big hammer to mark the start for drilling.

Anyhoo.. I did mine on location and felt like I needed to bring every tool in the shop, and patience.

I would drop the mast anyday before trying repairs up the mast. That is kinda a learned skill, and the learning can be the really hard way.

Kinda like Cave Diving.. you don't wanna learn as you go..

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 10:24:53

Stainless can be hand drilled as long as you are careful. You need to use a low speed, a steady hand, lube, and sharp cobalt bits. I'll bring along a couple of clamps so that I can clamp the work to the dock.

If you use a high speed (which is what hand drills prefer) you'll work harden the stainless and it'll get about as hard as a HSS bit, which then just dulls the bit.

If it's going poorly I can run up to my house and do it on the milling machine, I'd just rather do it at the boat and save 30 minutes.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 10:52:08

I just realized that you're planning on dropping the mast forward, rather than backward. I've seen discussions on this before. I dropped mine toward the stern, with an A-frame attached to the forestay in a manner similar to what DavyJ does in his YouTube video. It worked great for me.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 11:12:47

If I have the manpower, I prefer to drop it forward. Two guys on the dock to catch the mast, one on the bow, to scare...

Depends who is helping, If I get my military friends.. no problem.. When I have my photographer friends, I worry about them falling off the dock....

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 11:19:22

Ray, I guess the "on the dock" part really depends on whether you're bow in or stern in.

I used my dad and brother to help me take down the mast, and in hindsight, I could probably have done it with just one of them with my set-up. A few tweaks, and I could probably do it all myself.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 11:21:21

<< Ray, I guess the "on the dock" part really depends on whether you're bow in or stern in. >>

ROger that

Oh.. and

Take pictures.. you will be surprised what you think you saw and what is there...

Edited by - redeye on 04/13/2012 11:22:07

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 11:30:22

<< do it on the milling machine >>

Sweet... sounds like somebody has a nice shop!

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