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Another Cracked Rudder Question

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szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/04/2012 : 18:11:48

Ok... I hope it's not as bad as the subject.

Before I went back in for the season this year I looked at the pintles on the rudder and noticed that all bolts were loose - caught it in time.

Well I've noticed bit of a crack in gelcoat under the lower pintle - which I'm assuming might be from over tightening and of course pressure. Didn't look too bad so I didn't think too much about it. I had some epoxy premixed for different repair so i just filled the crack on edge with bit of epoxy to ensure moisture doesn't get it and I planned on repairing it properly over the next winter.

Then I've tightened the bolts and off I went. This weekend I've noticed that lower pintle has shifted up a bit so I decided to take the rudder off for closer inspection. Here's what I've found:

After reading bit more about rudder cracks on this forum, I got bit nervous. Good news is that it doesn't look like the crack is right through - and it's quite small to samples i've seen here. Seems that gelcoat has cracked from over tightening. Also I supose when the lower pintle was loose the inner bolt bore a bit bigger hole - hence the pintle has shifted up a bit.

What's your advice on it?

Based on few threads i've looked at, everyone highly recommends getting new balanced rudder. Well i can look into that but I'd like to get one more season at bare minimum on this rudder, as i'm in the process of getting a trailer.

I've worked with fiberglass on small repairs - but this looks like it will be bigger.

I have (from previous small repairs) System Three Cold Cure - 2 part epoxy. Is it adequate for this repair?

<ul><li>Based on homework on this forum seems that I need to open up the crack to check if there is any rot in there.</li><li>If there is any internal damage - get new rudder </li><li>if no rot and crack is not right through - fill it with epoxy</li><li>The bolt hole I plan on filling it with epoxy and once cured re-drill it </li><li>on the edge of the rudder where the lower pintle is, there are quite a few crack (bigger right on the edge and small ones right on top). Should i attempt to remove all of gell coat in that area and reinforce it with epoxy? </li></ul>

Anything else that I'm missing? Is there anything else I should do to reinforce it? IF there is particular thread that i should follow please let me know. Or even any outside of the forum info would be appreciated.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

Daniel.

Daniel
Shy Tuna
1985 C-25: SR/FK/TR #4838

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 18:37:56

See if you can have a new rudder shipped to the same location you are getting the trailer. Might save enough on shipping to make things worth your while. Were I in your shoes, I wouldn't be messing with this one much. It looks like its time for a new rudder.

Even if the second bolt hole has only opened up from abrasion, how much water has been in there over the winter to freeze/thaw a few times? how much has that weakened the rudder? I dunno either, but I'd rather have a spare in the aft berth when this one lets go, than be wishing I had a spare in the aft berth.

Actually I'd just replace it and fuggetabout the spare altogether. Then again, I'm spendy like that.

Edited by - Prospector on 06/04/2012 18:39:13

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 19:23:55

The lower pintle is where the maximum torsional forces are on the rudder, especially in choppy water when the boat is heeling. The head of that rudder, where the pintles are attached, is cored with wood. Moisture that migrates into it from the bolts, or from a split in the seam between the two halves of the fiberglass shell, weakens that wood due to freezing and/or rot. That was happening on my '85, and contributed to the elongation of the bolt hole, like you see there. The elongation further contributed to the moisture migration. I didn't have those cracks, which I'd say are precursors to a sudden break when the rudder is stressed out on Lake Ontario (?) resulting in no rudder... I think some members here will tell you that it's worth the US$700+ to keep that from happening. I wasn't interested in waiting.

Edited by - on

WesAllen
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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 20:32:35

I agree with Dave. Mine was in similar condition when I replaced it 2 years ago. I made my own based on tech tips but I felt a whole lot better after I took the old one and opened it up. I don't know how it was still working, it was pretty rotten inside.

Wes

Edited by - on

rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 20:34:40

edit: read new posts below with actual experience in loosing a rudder...

By my loose understanding, I'm saving spending 10% the cost of boat in buying a currently unproven HDPE rudder, since I repaired the original myself. Again loose understanding, the worst is I loose a rudder, drop sails and motor home (producing much relief with your guests in these conditions). I'm ignoring the fact balanced fiberglass rudders are available, as I'm drooling over the blue water rudder available only in HDPE.

Read on if my logic is correct and your crack is above waterline as mine was.
In three afternoons, after amassing the chemicals, I drilled a bunch of holes along the forward facing rudder crack and soaked the bone dry wood with Rot Doctor (Seattle, WA). Then I filled those holes and the pintle bolt holes with West Systems (second afternoon). Finally, I ran a paint soaked brush over my repair, redrilled the pintle bolt holes and called it good (third afternoon)

Edited by - rrick on 06/05/2012 10:47:19

szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 08:14:09

ok folks... Seems that it's worst than I thought. Based on feedback that it's time to replace it, I've decided not to attempt the repair on my own, but I will swing by fiberglass repair shop (right next to my marina) and I'll ask them to have a look at it.

If it's something reasonable I will get it repaired - but I'll see what feedback i get from the shop.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 08:39:56

The shop will definitely be able to repair it. But the question you need to ask yourself, as skipper, is - Is it worth risking the lives of captain and crew for a few hundred dollars, if you are out on the Lake in strong wind and chop and cannot maintain your course through the chop with only the outboard motor for steering?

A few years ago I did a great job repairing my original rudder that looked like yours. I ground out both sides around the cracks, added 7 and 8 layers of fiberglass to port and starboard sides, painted it, and it lasted about 18 months. One fine November day while beating into 2-3 foot chop with 10-15 knots of wind, the rudder broke off at the lower pintle. I had difficulty motoring back about a mile to the marina with only the outboard.

My fiberglass repair was excellent, but the plywood core was too weak to function any longer as the rigid structure needed. I hope my new balanced rudder will also last more than 25 years!

Edited by - JohnP on 06/05/2012 08:40:47

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 09:04:40

A new rudder will set you back close to $700 with shipping. Before doing that, I would grind out the cracks with a dremel or multi-tool, fill both holes and ground out cracks with West Systems 2-part epoxy, and redrill the holes for the pintle bolts. Grind down the outer coating and add a reinforcing layer of glass cloth if you feel it needs it. That ought to get you through one more sailing season, UNLESS you frequently sail in rough conditions. Then it would be safer to go with a new rudder.
So far, the repair I did to our C22 rudder to fix a crach about half way across the blade at the lower pintle is holding up well.
Here's the link:
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=24930

Edited by - dmpilc on 06/05/2012 09:15:57

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 20:18:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 I would grind out the cracks... That ought to get you through one more sailing season, UNLESS you frequently sail in rough conditions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I gather he sails on Lake Ontario. As lakes go, that's closer to ocean conditions--no place for playing this risk.

By the way, for anyone thinking you can steer with the outboard if the rudder fails, I recommend you remove the rudder and try it some time. You can do it, but I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised.

The nastier moment is when, in serious wind and chop, suddenly the tiller goes loose, the boat heads up, crosses the wind, backwinds the jib, spins back down-wind, and you're struggling to release the jib sheet and figure out what the hell just happened!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/05/2012 20:27:34

Lee Panza
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USA
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Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 22:34:38

Well, it's Election Day in California (our Presidential primary), and the voting is pitifully slow, so it's giving me a chance to contribute to this forum. As an engineer I'm pretty concerned about some of what I've read here about rudder repairs, so I'm throwing my own opinion into the mix.

Simply filling a surface crack can leave the rudder badly compromised, and it's usually not worth the risk.

When a plank is bent or twisted the greatest stresses are at the opposing surfaces: the portion that becomes slightly convex experiences tension forces (stretching) and the concave side experiences compression. At the middle the forces are neutral, and the amount of force experience by the material anywhere in between is proportional to how far it is from that neutral center. This is why many racing boats' shells are constructed with two surfaces of glass-fiber reinforced epoxy separated by a core of something light like foam or balsa wood. The core is there to keep the two surfaces apart rather than for any intrinsic ability to resist bending, and the bending strength is provided by the surfaces alone. Foam core rudders work on the same principle. In the original-type Cat-25 rudders the plywood core helps provide some additional stiffness (bending resistance), but it's at least as much for crush resistance and stress distribution in the areas subject to point loading (hardware locations). Plywood deteriorates fairly rapidly when it gets wet and can't dry out inside a fiberglass shell, so filling cracks and holes to keep the water out is indisputably important. John, when your repaired rudder failed, the initiation of the break was most likely a compressive failure where the softened plywood started to crush and couldn't support the skin, which buckled and focused all of the bending force at that one point: SNAP!!!

The tension is the primary reason cracks form and propagate. Filling a crack helps that surface resist compressive forces, but it's not much help for high tensile stresses. Cutting or grinding the crack even deeper into undamaged material can do more harm than good in this regard. Yes, that's a good way to prevent water intrusion, but it relies entirely on the adhesive properties of the epoxy filler to resist the stretching at the surface. A vessel with walls of epoxy alone will crack and break relatively easily without the fibrous material embedded in it. The process John described is the right thing to do, and if it had been done before the core had absorbed water it might have been at least as strong as the original undamaged rudder.

So there are two reasons for repairing rudder cracks, but just filling them leaves the rudder dangerously weakened even if the plywood never got a drop of water into it. Unfortunately, there's no non-destructive way to check how much it's strength has been reduced. The best we can do is check our rudder occasionally, especially at the lower pintle, and take action at the first sign of cracking.

Although you may well never need your rudder's full potential, we sometimes find ourselves in unexpectedly challenging conditions, and sailing with a weakened rudder can be a disaster just waiting to happen. It's also an injustice to whomever acquires your boat after you - we can expect these Catalina 25's to be around for a long time, and some unsuspecting future owner may find themselves the innocent victim of a previous owner's risk. Yes, a new rudder is expensive, and it's easy to rationalize not spending the money, but continuing to use a cracked rudder is like driving on bald tires: you can get away with it, but you'd better hope you don't suddenly need that lost capacity.

Edited by - on

rrick
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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 01:01:56

I like your analysis of wood core fiberglass. I never thought anything good of that cursed wood. Now, I'll be sure and stick to Rot Doctor's wood epoxy resins that claim a result of toughness and flexibility like wood, likely sacrificing ultimate strength found in regular BPA epoxy resins. RD's goal is to restore the wood that is too hard to replace.
Forum's goal is to get every C25 owner on the same page doing things correct, so my repair, not so bad? I did loose a lot of fiberglass on the forward of the rudder when drilling those holes for the resin injection. After halting the rot with Rot Doctor CPES, I backfilled using quite a bit of colloidal silica thickened West Systems, too brittle?

I noticed a purchaser gets a lifetime warranty on a new rudder. That is nice.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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USA
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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 03:52:58

Personally, looking at the cracks in the rudder, I would just buy a new one. My thought is that the rudder sees a lot of abuse every single time it is used given the stresses that are put on it and these rudders we have are extremely old and have served us well through all these years. Once cracks form, while some may have satisfactorily repaired them, my thought is that the repair job is critical to ensure the rudder can withstand the same stresses for who knows how mnay more years you own the boat. I would rather not take the chance on such a critical component of the boat. On the other hand, I am also somewhat skeptical about eaxactly which mfrs rudder to purchase as a replacement. My thought is that I want exactly the same rudder made to the same configuraton and construction as the old one since my old one has so far lasted for over 22+ years and so that's exactly the rudder I want to replace it with to once again ensure long service life. So, I would not want to go with one of the HDPE rudders but there have been past posting threads on rudder replacements and there are one or two companies out there that make the same OEM rudder.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 07:08:44

The OEM rudder for the '89 is a distinct improvement over the one built for all years up to somewhere around '88. It's the balanced, fiberglass one sold by Catalina Direct and custom-made by another maker.

On some other sailing forums, solid HDPE rudders have been reported to snap. These are also sold by CD and made by Ruddercraft (previously known as IDA). Lee's explanation might point toward the reason... A "crack" in that material will probably instantly translate into a clean break. My money went to CD's balanced fiberglass OEM model. It was a distinct functional upgrade over my '85 original, and made me feel much more secure. Hopefully it's still serving Bruce Ross well.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/06/2012 07:11:25

szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 07:14:42

Thanks for all the feedback - i can always count on this forum!

As I've mentioned earlier based on the feedback i got bit nervous and decided to double check with fibreglass pro.

Here's an update:
I called my local fiberglass repair shop yesterday and over the phone he was very confident that he can fix it. When i dropped it off within first minute he told me it's not worth fixing it - in fact it might not even be possible due to possibly extensive core damage. Just to attempt fixing it it would be approx 4 hours of work and would be approx $300 - $400. Also once he opens it up and if the core is wet, he would not even recommend fixing it further.

In a nut shell he told me that he will not put his name on half "@##" job.

I was really disappointed - but on the other hand I was very pleased with his honesty.

Sooo... I need to place order for new rudder today. That sort of puts a dent in my plans.... but it's out of my control.

In any case: Which rudder do you guys recommend - Balanced? Blue Water Rudder? Also at this time should I be replacing pintles and gudgeons (seems to look fine to me)?

And I suppose Catalina Direct is the only way to go - correct?

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 07:51:22

if budget is tight, find a non-balanced used cheap. Foss? is the original builders, and now have split into CA and FL locations....which is the original OEM?

Edited by - on

CarbonSink62
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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 08:03:52

A new rudder is also on my list. I'm hoping to get a few years out of the original. This thread makes me want to take it home and check for cracks under the lower pintle strap.

If I were to buy today, I think it would be the HDPE blue water rudder.

Since we're talking rudders, my '82 with a buff hull has a white rudder. The salesman said they probably all had white rudders. Now that both are shined up, the difference couldn't be more stark. What gives? do C-25s all have white rudders?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 09:30:24

As Dave and Mike mentioned, the OEM mfr's rudder construction is offered as one of the rudders that CD sells and also by Foss. Foss has two different sort of different companies and I am not sure without reviewing their websites or past postings on this subject which is the preferred one. But that is the way I would go if I was to replace my rudder - 22+ years - who can argue with that ! HDPE...verdict not completely in, they have been out for...not sure 8 yrs ? and during that time, there have been some past postings of some of them snapping as Dave pointed out.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 09:34:11

The balanced rudder for a C-25 from Catalina Direct has hard foam core material that does not absorb water, which may be helpful over several decades of use, if any cracks or grounding damage or collision damage occur.

I like the somewhat easier steering with the balanced rudder. As others have explained, it has a portion of the blade forward of the center of rotation to balance some of the torque on the blade aft of the center of rotation.

CarbonSink62,
My new rudder arrived from CD as unfinished, white gelcoat. I used fiberglass primer and then two coats of blue bottom paint below the waterline for my saltwater use, and also white epoxy paint above the waterline to match the hull. If you're on a lake and keep the boat out of the water, no bottom paint would be needed.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 09:48:48

What is the chord length on your new glass/foam rudder? I bought the HDPE rudder from Catalina Direct and it seems a little too short (chord length is 12"). My old rudder was shorter (it wasn't a C-25 rudder, I think it was a C-22 one) and 15" chord length and it seemed to work a bit better at low speeds.

I was worried about the HDPE rudder but I only found one old story on a snapped one, and a lot of second or third hand reports. I think the story may be repeated more than the reality.

Edited by - on

keeldad
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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 10:35:17

Probably somebody else has already thought of this and found a good reason not to but, has there ever been consideration of making a new rudder out of metal? I figure electrolysis might be an issue but it would seem that a piece of metal could be cut, shaped, and painted for a whole lot less than $700. Thoughts?

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 10:51:13

The boat's stern is already heavy enough, a heavy metal rudder would just hurt there.

The HDPE plastic used for the Rudder Craft rudders is also pretty cheap as a raw material. The 3D milling to make a nice rudder just takes specialized tools. The size is larger than what most CNC metal fabrication tools will work with. I think they could be made cheaper if they were done in high volume, but for a low volume item the pricing is pretty reasonable.

If you really need a budget rudder you could make a flat one out of plywood that you encased in fiberglass to make it waterproof and stronger. It won't perform as one with an airfoil shape, but it'll work.

Edited by - on

szymek
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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 11:06:10

I called CD to briefly talk bout the Rudders - they've recommend to go with the blue water rudder just for Lake Ontario conditions - they did refer to it as ocean like sailing :-)

They told me that blue water rudder is better for heavier seas as it's longer and is more flexible than balanced rudder - which seems to be contradicting to what was stated here. hmmm.

I haven't made final decision just yet... but i hope to place the order tomorrow.

Just one more question on the old rudder:

Is the slit that goes along the edge normal or that is excessive?

From what I remember it's been like that since I bought the boat in 2008. So i'm just curious whether that is normal or that is sign that core is is wet and it started expendig. Just a note all damage appears to be above water line. Entire part that is in water looks good and has been coated with Interprotect 2000 (by previous owner), and I apply VC-17 every year (well not for waterproofing purposes of course).

Edited by - szymek on 06/06/2012 11:08:24

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 13:40:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you really need a budget rudder you could make a flat one out of plywood that you encased in fiberglass to make it waterproof and stronger. It won't perform as one with an airfoil shape, but it'll work.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you're relatively handy, the airfoil shape wouldn't be too hard to duplicate. You could make half-profile jigs from your current rudder's foil if you've got a jig or band saw. Then detail the jigs with a rasp or file, or power tools if you've got them so they fit the shape. You could probably get by with a profile every 8-12" or so, maybe less depending on the rate of change in the foil shape. I'd use a laminate of waterproof plywood such as BS-1088, and then glass that in.

Edited by - on

szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 07:33:14

delliottg: I'm handy but I'm not sure if I'm up for testing my skills on building new rudder.

Quick update:
This morning I ended up at semi-retired boat builders shop.

Long story short - he did quite a bit fiberglass repairs for a friend of mine few years ago.

By looking at the rudder he didn't have much to comment on - he did say that pics that I sent him looked a lot worst than in person. Rather than just repairing the cracks, he said that he'll open it up over the weekend to see what is going on inside. If core is ok he'll build up the fiberglass and I'm off to the races. If not, he'll build me a new rudder next week.

The quote that he gave me for the new rudder if he has to go that route was super reasonable - also he said that in the last 30+ years that he's been building boats and doing repairs, not even a single rudder came back.

I'm looking forward to hearing back from him - and the bonus is that this is a bit of learning experience for me to even chat with him.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 13:24:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">also he said that in the last 30+ years that he's been building boats and doing repairs, not even a single rudder came back.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's because none of them ever made it back to shore...

Yes the seam crack is normal

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 11:06:05

I'll suggest you give the guy [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/pictures/brudder3.gif"]this drawing[/url] of the newer balanced design that Catalina started using around '88. It's a nice improvement over the earlier version. The OEM version uses a NACA foil shape that, among other things, pretty much eliminates the "flutter" feel I had with my original.

Note that the drawing is not to scale--the rudder is proportionally taller than the drawing looks.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/09/2012 11:10:07

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