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Non Catalina docking problem

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/24/2013 : 07:15:30

Hello all, I'm trying to adapt a docking plan for my Beneteau 361 which would allow me to dock stern first into my slip. My wife and I really like being able to simply step onto the dock through our walk-thru transom.

I have a couple of challenges though; my wife will not drive the boat, and the prevailing winds this time of year are from the southwest. This means my wife has the duty of grabbing lines and attaching to cleats as we pull into our slip. The problem is that stern-in, our boat's bow points almost directly West, so when we back into our slip (we approach from the south), the southwest wind pushes the bow over into our neighbor before my wife can secure the bow line.

If we take a dockline, I’m thinking ½ inch, from the boat’s bow cleat to the stern cleat on the port side, run it outside the stanchions, then my wife could grab the line from the dock post much earlier (pretty much from the deck outside the cockpit) and snap it onto that ½ inch “cleat” line with a caribiner clip we could have already on the dockline she grabs from the dock post. Then as the boat continues into the slip, the caribiner clip would travel along that “cleat” line to the bow of the boat, but stopping the bow from blowing over to the neighbor boat.

I’ve attached a diagram of my idea. The red star on the dashed boat is where my wife could stand and grab the dock line from the post (shown as a blue square on the end of the dock) and snap it onto the cleat line, then the dock line would run along the cleat line toward the bow, stopping at or around where the green star is on the solid-lined boat.

Wichard sells the beefiest caribiner clip I could find, with almost a 4,000 pound working load.

What do you think?

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 07:41:08

Do you have a midship cleat on the boat--for example, [url="http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|2259971|2259983|2259991&id=598"]one that mounts on a genoa track[/url]? If not, I'd get one. Then I'd probably cleat a spring-line on the opposite side of the finger dock, toward its end, and leave it where you can reach it as you enter the slip. As you're backing in, your wife grabs that line and drops the loop on the midship cleat. As that line goes taut, it pulls your boat in toward the finger, and at idle speed can hold it there while you negotiate the other lines.

If the wind is really piping and might push you too far over before the spring-line pulls you back, have your wife grab the spring-line, wrap it counterclockwise(not the loop) one turn around the cleat so it goes taut very quickly, and then let it slip around the cleat as you continue to back in. She should do this standing up--no fingers near the cleat.

The reason for suggesting cleating this spring-line on the opposite side of the finger is to give it more of a "pull angle"--that's how mine is set up. Once everything is in place in the slip, I remove that line to eliminate a tripping hazard. I have another spring-line cleated on my side of the finger that takes over. (My "grab-line" is a different color from the others.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/24/2013 07:51:33

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 07:49:35

Dave, i do indeed have a midship cleat that I attach a spring line to. I had not thought of using the dock post on the opposite side of the finger for a spring line. You think that will keep the boat from blowing over, huh? I might try that, but do you see anything in my plan that would suggest any problems with my idea? My thinking is to keep this as simple as possible for my wife. I'm the sailor, not her, and she's being a real trooper in sharing this passion with me. But I'm afraid that if we have too many more bad dockings, my wife will begin dreading going to the boat. Allowing her to simply clip the caribiner onto the "cleat" line I mention in my first post would be pretty stress free for her.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 08:27:13

I can't say it won't work... The spring-line approach has the advantage of stopping the boat and holding it against the finger so you can handle your other dock-lines with no urgency.

Thinking about it further, you could do a hybrid... The "cleat line" could run from the stern cleat to the midship cleat, so the line with the caribiner becomes a spring-line when it reaches the midship cleat. That means the line with the caribiner would be a little longer than you imagined.

The midship spring-line, especially with an angle as I described, pulls the boat in to the dock as it goes taut. Then you can leave the boat idling in reverse while you calmly set your other lines. A line from your side of the end of the finger is less effective at this because it goes parallel to the boat. Other than that, I think you're on to something that should make your wife's duty less fearsome.

(I should mention I have the advantage of a fee-standing piling between my slip and the one next to me, so my only real issue is the end of the boat toward the main dock, which in my case is the bow.)

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 10:08:11

I run keep a permanent line secured at the ends of my finger pier that runs the the length of the pier and outboard of everything. Bow in my wife can pass a line around it and hold the bow in the middle of the slip from the foredeck. Stern in, she can pass a line around it from the cockpit and walk it forward as I back in to keep us centered. Same concept as your line on the boat, but it is permanently rigged and position is controlled from the boat instead of the dock.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 10:43:01

Thanks Daves.

Dave Bristle, we actually did the spring line method first with the idea that by keeping the engine in reverse/idle, that it would keep the boat snug up against the finger, but going stern in that didn't work. We must have tried it a half dozen times, and each time even though our spring line was on the midship cleat, the bow was blown to starboard.

Dave B., I'm not sure I'm understanding your method. You secure a dock line at both ends of your finger dock? What does your wife pass a line around?

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 14:33:22

If you back up faster the wind won't have time to blow the bow into your neighbors slip. Just sayin!

Edited by - GaryB on 06/24/2013 14:33:43

Ben
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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 14:41:26

Gary, that is certainly true, but then I'm afraid 7 tons of boat would hit the dock. Stopping this behemoth isn't like the C25. I used to be able to step off the C25 and slow it by hand if I came in a little hot. The Beneteau needs a lot of room to stop, and takes a while to respond to opposite direction thrust from the prop.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 14:41:58

I like Dave B's idea. Simple and easy to work with. If you want to use the caribiner, Ben, attach it to a 50' line (your boat is 31'), run the line through the middle of the bow cleat, or through a block attached to your bow pulpit. Secure a 1/2" line taught per Dave B. to the end and middle dock posts. As you back in, your wife snaps the caribiner to the dock post line and plays the caribiner line as the boat backs in to keep the boat centered in the slip.
Also, do a search here in the forum for "Nauti-dock-o-matic." Another good idea.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 15:11:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 Thanks Daves.

Dave Bristle, we actually did the spring line method first with the idea that by keeping the engine in reverse/idle, that it would keep the boat snug up against the finger, but going stern in that didn't work. We must have tried it a half dozen times, and each time even though our spring line was on the midship cleat, the bow was blown to starboard.

Dave B., I'm not sure I'm understanding your method. You secure a dock line at both ends of your finger dock? What does your wife pass a line around?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What if you moved your mid-ship's cleat a little further forward until backing down has the desired effect of pulling your bow to port. You'll lose some control to the stern, but that's not your big concern, and you could probably tune it to where you got a good balance of bow to port and stern fairly neutral.

We struggle with landing our boat nearly every time unless it's a quiet day with no tidal flow or contrary wind. I feel your pain. It's by far the most stressful part of every single trip we make.

Edited by - delliottg on 06/24/2013 15:11:48

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 15:51:18

Ben, When you are backing into the slip, is your wife standing on the bow? If so, it would probably be difficult for her to even reach the dockline from there without having to use a boat hook.

If she stands at about amidship, or just forward of the shrouds, at the widest part of the boat's beam as it passes close alongside the outer, windward piling, then she should normally be able to reach it easily with her bare hands, without a boat hook. Once she has the line, she can step to the bow, while you are still backing in, and attach the line to the bow cleat. There's no need for her to hurry and perhaps trip. She should have plenty of time, assuming you aren't coming in hot. If she can control the bow with the windward bow line, and if you can control the stern with a windward stern line or perhaps a breast line from the finger pier, then you should have ample time to go around and attach the rest of the lines. (I like to use a breast line to the finger pier, because it is easy for me to reach from the steering station.)

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/24/2013 16:05:23

Ben
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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 18:14:59

Steve, we practiced that more than half a dozen times on Saturday. We even had a hired professional instructor on board so we'd learn it right. My wife stood at the midship cleat, as you suggested, retrieved the line (using a boathook), but couldn't get it to the bow cleat before the wind carried the bow too far to starboard, pulling the dock line from her hand.

The so-called professional instructor was at a loss. nothing he suggested could keep the bow from swinging to starboard before the bow could be cleated.

The instructor has me focused at the wheel on keeping the boat going slow, so I'm trying to give the wife as much time as I can with that. But still no dice.

So that's when I came up with my idea. The wife can stand on deck near the stern, grab the line from the dock post as we pass close, clip the caribiner on the "cleat" line I would run from the boat's bow to stern, then the caribiner allows the dock line to travel up the port side of the boat up to the bow while I continue steering the boat into the slip. Seems easy on paper to me.

So far I haven't heard any reason why my plan shouldn't work.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 18:53:35

I didn't get it the first time you explained it, but it sounds very clever, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. Try it and let us know. That might be a good system for an aging singlehander also.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 19:51:52

I agree--worth a try! I can imagine that your wife isn't up to holding the boat against the wind with that line.

The one difference with my "spring-line" suggestion, which the instructor apparently didn't bring up, is the angle from the other side of the finger dock. It makes a difference for me, and my finger dock is quite narrow. For one thing, I can come in a little hotter and not worry about hitting. You might need just a little more throttle to get the spring-line to pull you in, but it should keep you from hitting the main dock (unless something breaks).

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2013 : 19:59:22

Could you use this device to snag the line rather then use a caribiner ??

[url="http://www.happycove.com/handyduck/"]Handy Duck[/url]

or this
[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_11151_10001_37699_-1?cid=chanintel&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=37699#.UckHrTSThIE"]Happy Hooker[/url]

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 06/24/2013 20:01:04

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2013 : 06:18:05

Steve, I'll certainly post on here how the idea worked out.

Dave Bristle, no, the instructor didn't not consider or mention using the cleat on the far end of the finger pier, I'll definitely try that too. I'm a little nervous about not having a contingency plan in place, and this could just be the thing.

Paul, that handy duck item certainly looks promising. The other item seems like it might not be strong enough to handle the loads it might come under, but the handy duck has a pretty high working load limit. Thanks for the recommendation. :)

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2013 : 07:15:14

Another idea - Instead of a caribiner, buy a hook like on the end of a boat trailer winch strap and get one of these:
http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Winch-Hook-Attaching-Device&i=35866
Attach the hook to the boat's bow line and use the pole, if needed, to clip the line to the dock.
Actually, you may be able to buy the hook already attached to a line made up as a replacement boat trailer winch line. In fact, I've got one out of the package but never used that I'll sell you for $10 plus postage.

Edited by - dmpilc on 06/25/2013 07:20:09

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/25/2013 : 10:37:41

Ben, the second device threads a line through a loop which in your case would be the dockside line. So you should not worry about it's strength. The device passes the boatside line around the dockside line and you then pull the boatside line, which is now looped around the dockside line, back to the boat.

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 06/25/2013 : 16:36:17

I mentioned my approach because it is so similar to you idea but reversed. Pulling together portions of several posts describes my approach. Secure a line at the outboard end of your dock and tie or cleat it at a convent point inward on the dock while staying outboard of everything so the line she passes around the fixed line can slide freely along it as you back in. Secure a long line to a bow cleat, your wife takes the free end and positions herself on what will be the dock side of the boat. Keep the line outboard of everything on the boat as it comes aft. When she can reach it, she passes the free end around the line secured along the side of your dock and back to the boat. She then walks forward with the line, keeping it outboard, and takes a half turn around the other bow cleat. (there is some disagreement on what constitutes a half turn - I go under both horns and then over the top.) Using the friction of the half turn will let her control the bow. The looping device would make passing the line around the dockside line pretty easy. The Nauti-Dock-O-matic is another good approach. Drop the eye around a cleat at the end of the pier and walk the line forward until she can take a half turn orotund a bow cleat.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 06/25/2013 17:01:24

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/25/2013 : 20:19:13

Just though I'd add my 2 cents worth.

I love Ben's original idea. I think it does exactly what he needs for his specific situation. His wife can connect the line from the cockpit and stay in the cockpit - no need to walk it up to the bow. Then, once the boat is in the slip, the line has the perfect positioning to keep the bow in.

A spring line can be a great thing, but with the geometry that he describes and the windage that his boat has, his solution is the best way IMO.

I'll have to remember this trick when I get my 50 footer. lol

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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1234 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2013 : 07:52:11

Thanks again, all. Dave B., your idea sounds excellent, and I agree that it could be perfect. When we were doing our manuevers last weekend, however, with a 10-12 knot wind pushing the port bow, wifey was having a difficult time moving fast enough. I want to avoid requiring her to "scramble," as it were. And if she had to hold the boat at the bow with a dock line, I'm not sure she'd be able to hang on against the force of the wind pushing against us.

The big caribiner came today, 4 5/8 inches long, and looks strong enough to hold 3,000 lbs!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/26/2013 : 08:58:57

Send us pics when you have it set up. Hope it works well for you.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 06/26/2013 : 09:44:43

Anything that makes her more comfortable is an improvement. I really don't see any problems with your approach, and it makes it hands free after clipping on. I suppose that if it was blowing hard enough to blow the bow off against the motor and rudder before you backed to your pivot point could be a problem, but that would be ugly docking even with helpers ashore.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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1234 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2013 : 11:31:58

Hi folks,

I know this is a long time since we kicked this idea around, but I wanted to follow up and tell everyone how my plan worked. The plan I went with actually is an adaptation of the Dock-o-Matic presented somewhere else in this forum by another member, so credit goes to that innovative individual.

Basically I ran a 40 foot long 5/8" line from the bow to stern, outside the lifelines as I mentioned above in my original plan. I then took a "Dock-o-Matic" with the 18" diameter loop in the flexible plastic tubing, had the boat-end of that connected to my "cleat line" with the strongest caribiner I could find (a Winchard brand with 4,000 lb working load, 8,000 lb breaking limit), and had that ready on deck near the cockpit as we made our approach to the slip, backing in all the way. As I steered the stern of the boat around the corner of our slip with the dock post only a foot or so away, my wife was able to easily and without stress drop the Dock-o-Matic loop over the post. We were so close she didn't even need the boathook. I continued steering the boat into the slip and the caribiner ran along the "cleat line," stopping near the bow and preventing the bow from swinging into the neighbor boat. My wife had plenty of time to attach the spring line as well.

So thanks so much to everyone for their thoughts and suggestions. I think this is going to be the docking method for the wife and me. The important factors are my wife is much more confident and much less anxious, and we can safely dock without injury to persons or property. :)

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 07/21/2013 : 11:46:28

Ben,
Glad to hear you got things worked out. I know how trying getting a dock line over can be, especially if the wind is piped up and the we have a contrary current.

I for one would be very interested in seeing a video of how your system works if you get a chance to do that, or at least a diagram. I think I understand it, but always interested in a different method to make our docking easier because it's easily the most stressful part of taking the boat out. Even when it goes well like yesterday, I still need a minute to get my heart rate back down afterward, and if it goes badly, a beer.

We used to use a modified version of Randy's Dock-O-Matic that had two loops (in case the first one missed, you had one more chance), but have abandoned it to me stepping down over the side with a line over the midship's cleat, and coming in a bit hotter than I like. So far this has worked well, I give the outboard a quick burst in reverse just before I go over the side and we haven't hit anything or anybody yet.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/21/2013 : 12:16:06

Ben, We're all glad it worked out well for you. to echo David above, we'd all love to see a video of your maneuver. Sounds like a well thought-out plan that I'm sure other boat owners would like to adopt. so glad we could help!
Please remit any copyright royalties from the video to the Association, LOL!!

Edited by - dmpilc on 07/21/2013 12:17:37

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