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Need Ideas to Permanently Cap Gate Valve - UPDATE!

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RAG Sailor
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Initially Posted - 10/01/2013 : 12:44:57

The previous owner of my 1981 Catalina 25 installed a new head. In doing so they eliminated the option for overboard dumping by installing it directly to the on-board holding tank exclusively. I’m cool with that as I would never use the overboard method. However, they left the through hull plumbing in place and just shut down the gate valve. I want to cap it permanently. The simplest way to do it would be to remove the elbow and replace it with a brass plug. The problem is the el cannot be turned without exerting a lot of force. I don’t want to take a chance as it could cause a leak if the entire line turns. The existing el measures 1 ¾” OD (outside diameter). This is not a standard plumbing size so I cannot find a cap to sweat-fit over it. Anyone have any ideas short of hauling it out of the water to do the plumbing? See link:

Mod Edit: Edited to make picture show & keep from having to scroll back & forth.

Good to be back at sea!

Edited by - RAG Sailor on 04/20/2014 18:10:38

Ape-X
Admiral

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Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 14:08:08

leave it alone until haul-out: Then remove and glass over completely.

Edited by - on

RAG Sailor
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144 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 14:12:25

Wish I could but the insurance company wants it sealed now.

Edited by - on

kc5dlo
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 14:19:34

Short piece of hose with a wooden dowel clamped inside till haul-out?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 15:15:05

Couple of things come to mind.

Can you unscrew the valve itself? If so, drive a wooden cone in from the outside to block the opening, remove the valve and put a cap on the threaded pipe.

If you can't move the valve, can you run a hose/pipe up the bulkhead above the waterline to satisfy the insurer? This seems basically as secure as if it had been attached to the head.

If that's not an option, scour the inside of the pipe and clean it with acetone, then pack full of Marine-Tex, JB Weld or other suitable epoxy putty to completely block off the valve. Of course it could still be knocked by a tool box or whatever and crack the valve off of the hull.

Edited by - on

hewebb
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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 04:40:09

Could you install a Y valve to connect back the original and just wire it off to satisfy the authorities. I know of several boaters that have done that. That should satisfy the insurance. By-the-way, none of the insurance companies I have contacted or used have asked that question.

Edited by - on

glen
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 07:28:54

Ok you are in the water, and I assume since you have a “Gate Valve” you also have the To Hull volcano. You Do Not want to play around with this right now. When I removed mine, I was on the hard. I went to unthread the existing gate valve and the entire brass pipe came out in my hand. Had I been in the water it would have been a SOL moment for me. For now just mix up some epoxy and pour it into the valve then (gently) cap it. Make the above “Ape-X” modification during the next haul out

Edited by - on

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 09:28:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glen
 Ok you are in the water, and I assume since you have a “Gate Valve” you also have the To Hull volcano. You Do Not want to play around with this right now. When I removed mine, I was on the hard. I went to unthread the existing gate valve and the entire brass pipe came out in my hand. Had I been in the water it would have been a SOL moment for me. For now just mix up some epoxy and pour it into the valve then (gently) cap it. Make the above “Ape-X” modification during the next haul out
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You nailed it right on the head. Had I not been reading all these different forums to learn about the VOLCANO installation I definitely would have been SOL. So, last weekend when I took my monkey wrench to the elbow and tried to turn it out and it wouldn't budge I stopped what I was doing and went for a sail. Your suggestion of filling the elbow with epoxy combined with a hard rubber waste pipe cap that I found in Lowes (fastens with a adjustable clamp that you screw tighter - like on a washing machine) sounds like a plan. Sometime next year I intend to haul her out and do the swing keel renovation. At that time I'll pull the whole line out and glass it over.

Thanks all for your suggestions! You all have been wonderful! I'm also glad to see that I'm not alone with my emotions about owning this boat. It almost feels like another child in my family (BTW, we are empty nesters and have room for a new edition :-) ).

Edited by - on

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 09:29:40

I meant to ask...what type of epoxy would work best with copper?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RAG Sailor
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glen
 Ok you are in the water, and I assume since you have a “Gate Valve” you also have the To Hull volcano. You Do Not want to play around with this right now. When I removed mine, I was on the hard. I went to unthread the existing gate valve and the entire brass pipe came out in my hand. Had I been in the water it would have been a SOL moment for me. For now just mix up some epoxy and pour it into the valve then (gently) cap it. Make the above “Ape-X” modification during the next haul out
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You nailed it right on the head. Had I not been reading all these different forums to learn about the VOLCANO installation I definitely would have been SOL. So, last weekend when I took my monkey wrench to the elbow and tried to turn it out and it wouldn't budge I stopped what I was doing and went for a sail. Your suggestion of filling the elbow with epoxy combined with a hard rubber waste pipe cap that I found in Lowes (fastens with a adjustable clamp that you screw tighter - like on a washing machine) sounds like a plan. Sometime next year I intend to haul her out and do the swing keel renovation. At that time I'll pull the whole line out and glass it over.

Thanks all for your suggestions! You all have been wonderful! I'm also glad to see that I'm not alone with my emotions about owning this boat. It almost feels like another child in my family (BTW, we are empty nesters and have room for a new edition :-) ).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 10:20:10

You might also Google a product called STAY AFLOAT for a temporary fix. It comes in a plastic tub. I recently saw a video on it by a rescue boat crew and bought a tub. In my opinion this stuff should be in the emergency supply kit on every C-25 (and C-22) with a thru-hull fitting. Amazing stuff. Just press the stuff into the elbow and cap it off.

Here's one link, but WM sells it too:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/product.do?part=255138&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=product_ad&type=pla

Edited by - dmpilc on 10/03/2013 10:21:30

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 10:26:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 You might also Google a product called STAY AFLOAT for a temporary fix. It comes in a plastic tub. I recently saw a video on it by a rescue boat crew and bought a tub. In my opinion this stuff should be in the emergency supply kit on every C-25 (and C-22) with a thru-hull fitting. Amazing stuff. Just press the stuff into the elbow and cap it off.

Here's one link, but WM sells it too:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/product.do?part=255138&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=product_ad&type=pla

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good suggestion. I'm getting a tub today to carry on board for an emergency but I'd rather use an epoxy that is more permanent.

Edited by - RAG Sailor on 10/03/2013 10:38:18

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 11:41:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 You might also Google a product called STAY AFLOAT...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Too bad Robert Redford didn't have it aboard...

I have to remember that stuff the next time I'm at Defender. (At WM, the 14 oz. tub costs more than two 7 oz tubs!)

I wonder if it's any different from toilet wax rings...

Edited by - on

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 11:47:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 You might also Google a product called STAY AFLOAT...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Too bad Robert Redford didn't have it aboard...

I have to remember that stuff the next time I'm at Defender. (At WM, the 14 oz. tub costs more than two 7 oz tubs!)

I wonder if it's any different from toilet wax rings...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Try these guys: http://www.downwindmarine.com/Stay-Afloat-Instant-Water-Leak-Plug-amp-Sealant-p-91001331.html

Plus they will talk with you live via phone. Good tech support.

Edited by - on

delliottg
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 14:59:25

I'm pretty sure it's not much more than toilet wax, but that's just my opinion.

As far as epoxy goes to seal the valve, use either gray Marine-Tex, or JB Weld, either should bond well to the valve body (rendering it useless, but sealed). Make sure you sand the inside of the valve & clean it thoroughly with acetone/alcohol before you apply the epoxy so you can be sure of a good bond.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 15:37:42

Yachting World (a UK magazine) did a really interesting test that you can watch online that tested many different ways of plugging holes in a boat. They included that goop, which is different than toilet bowl wax (look at how it acts when he works with it).

Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5PDuXvqL7c

The goop is about 13 minutes in.

The entire series of "Crash Test Boat" is very worth watching.

Edited by - on

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 20:03:43

Wow, I love that. Even something for vegetarians! I wonder if chopped meat also works?

Edited by - on

delliottg
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 21:44:07

Good video, although some better lighting would have been nice. While I was watching them try to float the key fob floaty through the hull, it seemed doomed to fail. I wonder if you tied a weight to the line roughly 1-1/2x the estimated length of the hull to the waterline so it'd pull the float line down for you (instead of trying to poke it down), then push the float through the hole (obviously float has to have more positive buoyancy to counteract the weight)? Actually, no it wouldn't, a heavier weight would be fine, use 2x the line I originally estimated, let the weight pull it down and out of the hull, then you'd simply pull the weight back up into the hull leaving the float on it's line to bob to the surface. Catch it with a boat hook, attach the bung to the end, and pull it back down & into the hole.

Edited by - delliottg on 10/03/2013 21:56:41

delliottg
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Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 22:06:43

But really, a good video to watch to learn how to act as it occurs. Even with that larger hole on the bottom of the hull, you can see that there is plenty of time to think it through and resolve the issue without a panic.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Something to keep in mind, I'd guess the boat they're punching holes in is probably at least a 35-footer (only a guess). Since volume increases as the cube of length, the volume of water necessary to sink that boat is substantially more than it would take to sink one of ours. A 2" hole in one of our boats would sink them in minutes no matter how big your bilge pump is or how much battery capacity you have to drive them. That's one of the reasons I fitted the largest bilge pump I could get into my bilge (2000 GPH) hardwired to my batteries, no breaker panel to go through. It is wired to a float switch, but I can override that if necessary, and I always keep my override on "Auto", and test it occasionally. I know it's a losing battle, but the larger your pump the more you can slow down the flooding, giving you a chance to get a jury rigged repair in place.

Edited by - on

glen
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Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 09:18:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RAG Sailor
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glen
 Ok you are in the water, and I assume since you have a “Gate Valve” you also have the To Hull volcano. You Do Not want to play around with this right now. When I removed mine, I was on the hard. I went to unthread the existing gate valve and the entire brass pipe came out in my hand. Had I been in the water it would have been a SOL moment for me. For now just mix up some epoxy and pour it into the valve then (gently) cap it. Make the above “Ape-X” modification during the next haul out
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You nailed it right on the head. Had I not been reading all these different forums to learn about the VOLCANO installation I definitely would have been SOL. So, last weekend when I took my monkey wrench to the elbow and tried to turn it out and it wouldn't budge I stopped what I was doing and went for a sail. Your suggestion of filling the elbow with epoxy combined with a hard rubber waste pipe cap that I found in Lowes (fastens with a adjustable clamp that you screw tighter - like on a washing machine) sounds like a plan. Sometime next year I intend to haul her out and do the swing keel renovation. At that time I'll pull the whole line out and glass it over.

Thanks all for your suggestions! You all have been wonderful! I'm also glad to see that I'm not alone with my emotions about owning this boat. It almost feels like another child in my family (BTW, we are empty nesters and have room for a new edition :-) ).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">WOW glad to help. I really can’t add any more to what has already been said. I will say though you have become a member of what is probably one of the best associations, for not just for 25 Catalina’s but sailing in general

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 11:15:41

I think the Yachting World Crash Test boat is a 40' racer cruiser. They go over it if you watch the videos from the start. They are all worthwhile.

I watched a 30' boat get a hole in it during a race this year. The amount of pumping that it took to keep it afloat was amazing. No bilge pump that runs off of a marine battery could do it. Bilge pumps are there to keep small leaks at bay, not major ones.

Edited by - on

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 14:22:22

Getting back on topic... How to permanently cap a gate valve. Well, while shopping for Stay Afloat, I came across this site: http://www.downwindmarine.com/ First of all, they had the best price for Stay Afloat. Better yet, they were reachable by phone and I discussed my issue. It turns out that they carry the hose (1 3/4" ID) I was looking for and combined with a small nipple that is threaded on one side (to be capped) and smooth on the other (to be clamped to the hose and to the elbow) I will be able to create a good strong seal. I also intend to fill the elbow with stay afloat. Overkill? Yes. Will it appease the insurance company? Most definitely. Please check these guys out. They (several in the service depart) collectively worked on this for me and got back to me with answers. Almost as good as lower prices is excellent customer service.

P.S. next haul out this line gets completely glassed over!

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 15:11:08

Ask them if they will still honor the discount we negotiated with them a few years back. Check out the member's area for details.

Edited by - on

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 10/14/2013 : 11:07:33

Well, finally! I received the hose from Downwind which was marked as 1 3/4" ID. Turned out to be 2" ID (though marked 1 3/4"). I was besides myself as my time to be insurance compliant was running out. My BW and I decided to wait a storm out on the hard this past Saturday and drove 30 miles to the nearest hardware (Lowes). I found a 1 1/4" waste hose connector which my 1 1/2" end cap fit over snuggly. The picture shows the end result. It is now secure until we bring her out for her bottom paint next year and we permanently seal off the through the hull opening. Thanks all for your suggestions and inspirations. Reading everyone's comments helped me figure this puzzle out. -Ron

Edited by - RAG Sailor on 10/16/2013 06:54:49

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 04/20/2014 : 18:09:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RAG Sailor
 Well, finally! I received the hose from Downwind which was marked as 1 3/4" ID. Turned out to be 2" ID (though marked 1 3/4"). I was besides myself as my time to be insurance compliant was running out. My BW and I decided to wait a storm out on the hard this past Saturday and drove 30 miles to the nearest hardware (Lowes). I found a 1 1/4" waste hose connector which my 1 1/2" end cap fit over snuggly. The picture shows the end result. It is now secure until we bring her out for her bottom paint next year and we permanently seal off the through the hull opening. Thanks all for your suggestions and inspirations. Reading everyone's comments helped me figure this puzzle out. -Ron

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, the time has finally come to permanently seal the through-hull fitting. I NEED YOUR HELP!

RAG Sail II was lifted out of the water on Friday and now sits on the hard. All the projects I've been needing to do will take place this week. I'm going through the swing keel modification (new cable, new bronze mountings, spacers, etc.) While on the hard I thought it made sense to have them pull the fitting that has been shut down from the waste tank and glass over. (That's the valve posted in this topic from last fall).

Here is where I need your help. Other than when the boat was surveyed, I never really stood under the hull while she was on the hard. Being Sunday and nobody was around, I was able to really walk around the boat and study it. I was able to count the three through-hull fitting areas. One to the port side of the keel pivot point (the waste tank fitting). second, about 3 feet aft which would be the sink waste water and finally on the stern the bilge pump through-hull discharge opening. Now my dilemma... right below the V berth is another valve that I open for sea water to be used to flush the head. My question is, where is the opening that, that valve leads to? I never saw a fourth point. I don't want them glassing anything if it's also going to close down the water intake for the head. Can someone please explain where that water draws from? Thanks, y'all!!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/20/2014 : 19:29:50

The common installation for a marine head was that one thru-hull was T'd to the drain for the sink in the head area, and the water intake for the head. This has generated some "issues" over the years, where people have discovered that to flush the head, they must put a stopper in the sink to force the pump on the head to pull water from the thru-hull, rather than air from the sink.

Edited by - on

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 04/20/2014 : 20:31:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 The common installation for a marine head was that one thru-hull was T'd to the drain for the sink in the head area, and the water intake for the head. This has generated some "issues" over the years, where people have discovered that to flush the head, they must put a stopper in the sink to force the pump on the head to pull water from the thru-hull, rather than air from the sink.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave... Thank you for your response but I need a very concise answer. Are you saying that the thru-hull used for the waste dump is the same used for the head intake for flushing? If that is the case then I shouldn't be glassing over it. The only reason why I was going to was that the insurance company wanted that valve (pictured in this thread) to be capped. I've achieved that with my rubber hose rig. It was responders to the original question that suggested it be glassed over as a precaution. But if I understand you correctly, by doing so will I lose the ability to flush the head? Can the valve be removed from the inside and glassed over on the inside leaving the opening for water intake?

As for the sink tie-in. On my boat it is totally separate. I've traced the lines as well as I previously mentioned, I identified that thru-hull. Mine is not tied in with the head line. Now my only sink is located in the galley. Maybe you are referring to boats that ALSO have a sink opposite the head. I can see where those could be tied in.

Edited by - RAG Sailor on 04/20/2014 20:36:27

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