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Carl in LA
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Initially Posted - 01/27/2017 :  17:32:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure if this post is pre-mature - so to speak...

The vessel is still being re-rigged from its sleepy time over the last few years...

I managed to get the mast raised and of course when doing so the forestay is in place...

I did flatten the boat while on the trailer and checked the the mast step was level.

Then I hung the drill motor from the main halyard... Looks like it is way farther back than the 4-inches that the Owners Manual recommends...

Perhaps I should finish rigging the boat and see how she sails - but that sure looks like a lot of rake aft...

That - and nothing is tightened up on the rigging either.

How do you have your mast set... vertical or way back?

Best,

Carl


Edited by - Carl in LA on 01/27/2017 17:32:41

Dave Brown
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Response Posted - 01/27/2017 :  18:42:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh boy, you just opened a can of worms.
your going to get, rake it back for speed, rake it FWD to
reduce weather helm, and all between.

So help them all out,
wing keel, or water B.
Year of boat. rudder 1, 2, long, 3th gen.

One can read for hr,s on this. check archives.
As for me, put it straight, and don't over torque the stays.
Sail the boat then read adjust as needed.
that's all for now from me.
DB.

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Carl in LA
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Response Posted - 01/27/2017 :  19:13:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No. 922 is a wing keel 2007 boat... rudder is 3rd gen.
Breezy sailing area (Hurricane Gulch in LA Harbor)


quote:
Originally posted by Dave Brown

Oh boy, you just opened a can of worms.
your going to get, rake it back for speed, rake it FWD to
reduce weather helm, and all between.

So help them all out,
wing keel, or water B.
Year of boat. rudder 1, 2, long, 3th gen.

One can read for hr,s on this. check archives.
As for me, put it straight, and don't over torque the stays.
Sail the boat then read adjust as needed.
that's all for now from me.
DB.



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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/27/2017 :  19:16:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The purpose of mast rake is to adjust the boat's weather helm. In very light air, weather helm is negligible, but as the wind speed increases, weather helm increases. If the rake is adjusted correctly, and the sails are trimmed correctly, and the boat isn't overpowered by too much sail area, the boat should have a comfortable amount of weather helm, even in strong winds. If the mast is raked aft too much, it will make you arm weary in heavy winds. Here's what the C250 owner's manual says about rig tuning:

TUNING THE MAST:

Your mast is held aloft by the standing rigging (forestay, backstay, upper shrouds and lower shrouds). The term "tuning" refers to adjustment of the standing rigging so that the mast remains "in column" when under load. This is accomplished by following the procedure outlined below:

AT THE DOCK: (First of tuning)

1. Adjust forestay and backstay so that the rake (fore and aft angle of the mast) is approximately four (4) inches. In order to measure the rake, tie a weight from the main halyard to act as a plumb bob, and measure the horizontal distance between the halyard and the aft face of the mast.

2. Adjust upper shrouds so that the mast is vertical from side to side. To verify this, using the main halyard, measure the distance from the masthead to the center of the pin a the chainplates; repeat for opposite side and adjust upper shrouds as necessary

3. Once the mast is straight side to side, increase tension of upper shrouds taking an equal number of turns per side, until the fore and aft prebend induced reaches approximately 1 ½ inches.

4. The lower shrouds should be adjusted slightly looser than the uppers. The shrouds will help control the amount of prebend in the rig.

NOTE: Rigging tensions may be measured with LOOS & Co. Model B tension gauge.

TUNING UNDER LOAD: (Second part of tuning)

The tuning at the dock gives an initial positioning of the mast but it is essential to tune the rig under load in order to compensate for dynamic forces that occur while sailing.

1. While sailing normally to windward, at approximately 15 to 20 degrees of heel; sight up the mast, along the aft face, from the deck If the middle of the mast (where the spreaders are) sags to leeward in relation with the top of the mast, take up on the weather side lower shrouds until the mast is straight If the top of the mast sags to leeward in relation with its center, then take up on the weather side upper shrouds. Repeat this procedure on both tacks.

2. Observe carefully the behavior of the leeward shrouds. They should never be loose. All rigging wire used on yachts has a tendency to stretch, especially on a new yacht, and after you have sailed in heavier wind than you normally experience. Therefore, you should periodically check the tension of the shrouds and stays, tightening them up if it is required. Our masts are built to withstand any normal usage, but improper tuning or handling can cause problems. Rigging as well as tuning becomes all important when setting up the mast. A knowledgeable person should oversee the rigging and tuning so as to eliminate the possibility of an eccentric load which might occur with an improperly loaded shroud. Special attention should be given to the initial stretch of the wire over the first few hard outings. ALWAYS, before leaving the docks, check all your turnbuckles for tightness.

MOST MAST FAILURES HAVE BEEN TRACED TO LOOSE TURNBUCKLES AND IMPROPER TUNING.

IMPORTANT:

Final tuning of the mast depends on local conditions and the cut and set of your sails. Consult your dealer or sailmaker for advise. More detailed information on this subject can be found in Wallace Ross' "Sail Power", published by Alfred A. Knopf in New York

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Carl in LA
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Response Posted - 01/27/2017 :  19:25:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yup... read the manual...

I currently have way more than 4-inches...

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

If the mast is raked aft too much, it will make you arm weary in heavy winds. Here's what the C250 owner's manual says about rig tuning:

TUNING THE MAST:


1. Adjust forestay and backstay so that the rake (fore and aft angle of the mast) is approximately four (4) inches. In order to measure the rake, tie a weight from the main halyard to act as a plumb bob, and measure the horizontal distance between the halyard and the aft face of the mast.


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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/27/2017 :  19:44:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd recommend you tilt it forward to about a 4" rake, and then fine tune it after it's in the water. Giving it a 4" rake, as recommended by the designer, should get it "in the ballpark." After that, you can tilt it slightly more forward or aft to get the amount of weather helm that you find comfortable. Weather helm equals drag. Too much drag slows the boat. A racer will want to reduce weather helm somewhat. In any case, the range of adjustment on either side of 4" shouldn't be much.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Dave Brown
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Response Posted - 01/27/2017 :  19:56:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok , how the boat sit on its water line?
Nose High ?
Not all do his, BUT, I have sand bags , way, way up FWD.
180lb's. this makes the boat sit, and sail better.
AKA no weather helm.
Others have none, some have more.
check the archives on this one.
DB.
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Carl in LA
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Response Posted - 01/27/2017 :  21:53:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Steve and Dave... yes... when I get down to the boat next Friday I'll shorten the forestay as much as I can at the turnbuckle... there is probably an inch of threads on the upper half of the turnbuckle that can be turned in... hopefully that forestay shortening will get the mast forward a bit.

Ugh... I bought a boat that needs a bit of work and I can only devote Fridays to the task... slow going. I have not had it in the water yet after owning it 8-weeks... my schedule of tasks show splashing by March. No clue yet as to how it sits in the water.

Lots to learn and several decisions forthcoming... keep the Honda 9.9 back there or switch to a lighter motor, second battery up front, sand bag up front.

I have patience but looking forward to enjoying the sail.

All the best,

Carl

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Brown

Ok , how the boat sit on its water line?
Nose High ?
Not all do his, BUT, I have sand bags , way, way up FWD.
180lb's. this makes the boat sit, and sail better.
AKA no weather helm.
Others have none, some have more.
check the archives on this one.
DB.

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/27/2017 :  22:07:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Use search to find lots of other posts on this.

Definitely get the boat on her lines before doing anything about rake. See my other posts on the topic to understand why.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
Photobucket is holding my picture hostage!
----- 1998 C250WK #348 "Take Five" -----|-------- 1991 15' Trophy ----------|- 1985 14' Phantom -
---- Essington, PA on Delaware River -----|---------- Trailered to Lake Wallenpaupack ------------
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Carl in LA
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Response Posted - 01/28/2017 :  06:22:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, can do will do.

I had just expected that the rig would fly up and be perfecto but seeing that drill motor hang a foot and a half behind the mast caught me off guard.

quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

Use search to find lots of other posts on this.

Definitely get the boat on her lines before doing anything about rake. See my other posts on the topic to understand why.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/28/2017 :  13:34:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm wondering about your statement that the mast step is level... I wouldn't make the assumption that the mast step is perfectly parallel to the true waterline--in other words, that it will be level when you're floating. And I wouldn't bank on your boat sitting on the trailer exactly as it will in the water. Therefore, your halyard test on the trailer is dubious--wait till you've launched before you do anything drastic.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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kjk
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Response Posted - 01/28/2017 :  15:49:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd wait until you are in the water before making any final adjustments and making any decisions regarding ballast. When I tuned mine, it was in the water, at the slip, boom and sails off and relatively little stuff on it. The lines were fine and I have not added ballast. When going to wind, I ask that no one sit in the Margarita seats and if its blowing, I sit forward in the cockpit (I have a tiller) I put as much stuff forward and try not to use the aft berth as a garage.My wife says that it would be even better if I was my high school weight but that particular ship sailed long ago (Thank you, beer...)

Kevin J. Kiely
Rockport, MA
1999WK
Hull # 407
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Carl in LA
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Response Posted - 03/13/2017 :  17:51:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"I'd wait until you are in the water before making any final adjustments and making any decisions regarding ballast."



Well, she's in the water and the stays are tightened to roughly equal tension (Loos)... It does not look like there is any aft pre-bend... the mast even looks like it is trending forward.

I wonder if the mast is curved from transport?

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 03/13/2017 :  18:56:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The reason for your reverse bend is due to equal tension. You don't want equal tension. Lowers need to be looser than uppers. Don't even bother to use Loos on the lowers - do those under load.

Do some searching. There is lots of info here on how to tune the rig. Follow Steve Milby's procedure.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
Photobucket is holding my picture hostage!
----- 1998 C250WK #348 "Take Five" -----|-------- 1991 15' Trophy ----------|- 1985 14' Phantom -
---- Essington, PA on Delaware River -----|---------- Trailered to Lake Wallenpaupack ------------

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/13/2017 18:59:18
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Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/14/2017 :  01:09:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From the picture, your rig is so tight the mast is compressed.
I would loosen everything to get the mast straight.
Start with the procedure from the manual and tighten the lowers last.

Russ Johnson
2009-2016 Commodore - Catalina-25/250 and Capri-25 International Association
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Carl in LA
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Response Posted - 03/14/2017 :  06:25:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Russ.Johnson

From the picture, your rig is so tight the mast is compressed.
I would loosen everything to get the mast straight.
Start with the procedure from the manual and tighten the lowers last.




Agree - it almost has a classic S-shape of a column failing (buckling) in compression...

I sucked-up an extra inch and a half in the forestay to pull the mast forward but now it appears that was way too much.

Appreciate the observations...

Carl
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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 03/14/2017 :  08:28:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is not a fractional rig, so mast pre-bend does not come from stay tension. The only source of forward pre-bend is the forward compression of the swept-back spreaders that comes from the "guitar string" tension of the upper shrouds. Lower shroud tension will take away from the pre-bend, which is why you want lower tension to be much less than uppers.

This rig is very different from traditional rigs with 90 degree spreaders and forward/aft lowers. It's also very different from fractional rigs with adjustable backstays. You really need to read up on the specifics of this rig, otherwise you risk doing some damage.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
Photobucket is holding my picture hostage!
----- 1998 C250WK #348 "Take Five" -----|-------- 1991 15' Trophy ----------|- 1985 14' Phantom -
---- Essington, PA on Delaware River -----|---------- Trailered to Lake Wallenpaupack ------------

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/14/2017 08:29:04
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Dave Brown
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Response Posted - 03/14/2017 :  08:59:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
note: this is for a Cat 250,
other boats have a diff. mast step.


I have found that before one can rake the mast Fwd, or Aft,
the mast base, must allow this to happen. when the mast is raised,
one pin's it to the bast base. note: mast base only pins from one place, the back. Now the mast goes up with a louse back stay.
if the fore stay is now easy to pin, then one could move the mast Fwd. and Aft, a little. but if one hast to pull like heck on the fore stay, to pin it, and the back stay is louse, then it is where it is, and unless something : rash : is done to the base, one is not moving (aka raking) the mast anywhere Fwd. its a mechanical thing, the mast base is not a pivot point. its a base. unless one wants to use the 1/4" pin as a pivot point, and have all the down force, just on that pin.
use your knee and foot as example. with out moving your ankle(keeping it at one angle) pin your heel to the floor. with your leg as the mast
one can move your leg Fwd, until your foot hits the floor. once your foot hits the floor, your knee can not go any further Fwd. unless, one unpins your heel.
so whats the answer, unless one wants to redesign the bast base, or try bending the mast to some weird place, or add wt. to the fwd end of the boat (see above to see how this helps). just sail the boat, and have fun, because when one has 6 people in the cockpit, the boat will not sail the same, as it does with just one.
(aka : this is not a RACING answer,that would take more room.)
Dave B.

Edited by - Dave Brown on 03/14/2017 11:31:17
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Carl in LA
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Response Posted - 03/15/2017 :  15:07:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Brown

note: just sail the boat and have fun,
Dave B.



Yes, ready for the fun - but getting the boat set to specs is fun too.

The language from the manual is posted above and here is a picture from the manual.

And everybody is trying to help this come out right.

At this time:
Back stay loose
Lower stays loose
And upper stay at perhaps 15% per (the wrong) Loos gage...

Closer to straight but no forward pre-bend yet...

At least shes not bent into a S-shape.

Should i crank those upper stays even more?




Edited by - Carl in LA on 03/15/2017 15:08:40
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kjk
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/15/2017 :  16:45:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From the man, the myth, the legend...Arltn Stewart...
"Throw away the loose gauge numbers from web sites, books, riggers or any other place they can be found because the 250 isn't typical and those numbers are not suitable to her.

I'm not saying that the guage is worthless... just the numbers you will see out there as applying to the 250.

Here is the deal... the 250 has a very different rig than most of those numbers apply to. The 250 has a modified form of a B&R rig and has no forward lowers. It also has lighter rigging as it is a lightly keeled boat. It is also an open hull without interior bulkheads. The available numbers just don't fit.

The 250 should be tuned firm but not hard, with the upper shrouds (the aft shrouds that go to the spreaders and then on to the mast head) a good bit firmer than the forward (those just below the spreaders).

I know it would be easier if someone could just yield some numbers but first thing to understand is that the loose guages often read very different and there are several differing guages making things even worse. It is better to understand the dynamics of the rig tuning.

What is wanted is a settup that doesn't allow the foresail too much power. To get that the aft lowers should be tuned firm as they are the opposing force to the headstay (though you may be saying...this guy is whacko, the backstay is the opposing force to the headstay... trust me, I'm right about this on the 250.) Tighten them firm but loose enough to allow an inch of deflection when pulling the shroud after grasping it with two fingers at the last finger joints and curling the fingers inward. I know there are those who are thinking this ain't scientific enough... but trust me you will get a feel for it.

The forward lowers should deflect about twice as much as the aft given the same test. If the forwards are tightened too much (equal to the uppers), it will induce reverse (aft) mast bend that is not desirable.

The light rig of the 250 cannot sustain the numbers given for a boat with bulkheads and having a heavy keel and a rig needed to handle a heavy keel.

The last stay to tune is the backstay...tighten it only enough to pull it straight where it won't sag into the sail roach. Do not overtighten the backstay as to do so will release some of the tension on the aft lowers. It is the aft lowers that leverage against the raked spreaders that hold the center of the mast forward so overtightening the backstay reduces the ability of the uppers to hold the center of the mast forward... this is why the 250 is not a candidate for an adjustable backstay tensioner.

If after tuning, one feels that in a breeze the headsail has too much power because of a loose forestay and is sagging off too much...then tighten the uppers a bit more.

A simple test is when running hard to windward in a breeze, the leeward upper shouldn't be shaking but the leeward lower should have some slack. If there isn't any slack... then the lowers may be too tight. If the rig is too tight... light air performance will suffer and if it is too loose, then it can be overpowered in a breeze and suffer too much heel and helm pressure.

Of course it goes without saying when adjusting shrouds to observe symmetry. Once the mast head has been centered using a halyard to the rub rail on each side and the mast column straightness has been set by the lowers... any further adjustment of a shroud has to be countered by an equal adjustment on the other side.

Now...once a settup has been achieved that seems good...then one can use a loose guage and write down those numbers and use them to compare further adjustments and possibly even use them against other similar 250's... but not other boat designs. Keep in mind however that even with the same boat and loose guage... the guages may not read the same.

One final point... the 250 is not typical to heavily keeled boats that need a firm tough rig to handle the sailplan opposing the keel. Those boats will groan and strain under a broach whereas the 250 heels over and rounds up and shakes a broach off like it was no big thing. Many a tradional boat skipper will scoff at the light rigging of the 250 thinking it is dangerous... but it's not true... the rigging is very adequate to the boat design."

Kevin J. Kiely
Rockport, MA
1999WK
Hull # 407
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Dave Brown
Navigator

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Response Posted - 03/15/2017 :  17:27:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kevin,
Well said.!!!!!!!
And spot on.
D B. #411

Edited by - Dave Brown on 03/15/2017 17:30:20
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HappyNow
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/15/2017 :  18:18:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Carl-- I have only had the boat 1 year so I'm also a newbie. I had a heck of a time getting any prebend at all, and every time I tightened the uppers, the mast would bend in the wrong direction. I finally kept them loose, pulled the lifting cradle up to just below the spreaders with a halyard, and put another line going from the cradle forward, around the pulpit, and back to a cabin top winch. By cranking the winch I was able to start the prebend in the middle of the mast, then tighten the uppers and the mast will keep its prebend. Then you can adjust the lowers (loosely using the finger stretch method as described above) and lastly the back stays.

Michael Levin
Happy Now?
C250 #402
Lake Tahoe
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/15/2017 :  18:29:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The subject of rig tuning can become very confusing for many reasons, but it's like anything else - start with the basics, and first tune the rig according to the manufacturer's instructions. That will get the rig in nearly perfect tune. Then, after you have the rig up and adjusted, you can fine-tune it until the boat performs to your highest expectations. Trust that the designer knows best how to tune the rig that he designed. Bear in mind that the boat's prototype was tuned, sailed and fine tuned by the designer before it was put into production, and the manual is the result of his testing.

Begin by opening the owner's manual to pg. 15. I'm summarizing those instructions, for clarity.

1. Adjust forestay and backstay so that the rake (fore and aft angle of the mast) is approximately four (4) inches.

2. Adjust upper shrouds so that the mast is vertical from side to side.

Click on the link to the picture that follows paragraph #2 on pg. 15. That picture suggests that the tensions on the two upper shrouds should be equal. Likewise, the tensions on the two lower stays should also be equal. Because the uppers are longer than the lowers, the uppers will stretch a wee bit more when under load. Consequently, the uppers should be tensioned slightly more than the lowers.

3. Once the mast is straight side to side, increase tension of upper shrouds taking an equal number of turns per side, until the fore and aft prebend induced reaches approximately 1 ½ inches.

4. The lower shrouds should be adjusted slightly looser than the uppers. The shrouds will help control the amount of prebend in the rig.

Click on the link to the picture that follows paragraph #4 on pg. 15. That picture shows how the pre-bend should look.

After you have made all these adjustments, lie on your back at the base of the mast and sight up it to ensure that the mast is straight, and look at the rig from abeam, to ensure that the rake and prebend look like the pictures.

Think about what you are really trying to accomplish. You want the mast to be erect laterally, so the boat will sail equally well on either tack. You want the mast to have the correct amount of rake, because the rake of the mast adjusts the amount of weather helm. You want it to have the correct amount of prebend, because the sailmaker builds his sails so that they generate the most power on a mast that has a specified amount of prebend. You want the shrouds and stays tensioned correctly so that the mast doesn't flop back and forth when you tack or when sailing in a heavy chop, so that the mast remains in column when the sails are heavily loaded, and so that the forestay has minimal sag.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/15/2017 18:45:20
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7579 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2017 :  09:14:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kjk

...the aft lowers should be tuned firm as they are the opposing force to the headstay...

The forward lowers should deflect about twice as much as the aft given the same test...

Does the C-250 have forward lower shrouds?? Or are you thinking about a C-25? And if you want pre-bend, the aft lowers shouldn't be too tight--they pull back against the bend imparted by the uppers. I would be concerned too much tension there could contribute to "mast pumping."

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/16/2017 09:23:40
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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/16/2017 :  11:04:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think that the terminology is too misleading. There are uppers and lowers, all led to the same chainplates which are aft of the mast.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
Photobucket is holding my picture hostage!
----- 1998 C250WK #348 "Take Five" -----|-------- 1991 15' Trophy ----------|- 1985 14' Phantom -
---- Essington, PA on Delaware River -----|---------- Trailered to Lake Wallenpaupack ------------
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/16/2017 :  15:27:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
...which is what I thought. KJK distinguishes between forward and aft lowers. But there is just one pair of lowers, which happen to be "aft" due to the swept-back rig. On a rig like the C-25's, the forward lowers and the backstay can work to bend the mast. On the C-250's rig, as I see it, the upper shrouds and the swept-back spreaders do the bending, and hardening the lower shrouds tends to work against that.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/16/2017 15:37:55
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