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 bow sprit
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ted
Deckhand

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Canada
20 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/14/2019 :  10:17:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has anyone mounted a bow sprit on a Catalina 25?

Ted

Ted Ison

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/14/2019 :  11:44:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I saw one that had a small owner installed bowsprit, but I don't think it was functional. I think it was purely aesthetic. Tall rig C27s came from the factory with a small, functional bowsprit, but not C25s. Here's a photo of the C27 bowsprit.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Peregrine
Admiral

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812 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2019 :  22:11:38  Show Profile  Visit Peregrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes I installed a bow roller just to starboard side of the forestay. It has to be slightly angled to be on a good area to drill through.

Easy install just measure carefully before ordering because a long one will interfere with the anchor locker.
Follow this thread down for the roller installed. Sorry I don't have photos of mine.
http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=13941&SearchTerms=bow

Here is the photo from that thread.

Hope this helps.


John Gisondi
Peregrine
#4762


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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
8439 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2019 :  14:49:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What function are you thinking about--A-sail, anchor, cutter rig...?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-USCG-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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ted
Deckhand

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Canada
20 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2019 :  16:46:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The sprit I'm looking at is the Batsystem PB 105. I want to fly either a code 0 or a reacher. It also has an anchor roller. It's European and I can't find a north-American distributer. My local chandlery is looking for me. I have seen an American 35 footer with the PB 150. From the specs on the PB 105 it should fit a Catalina 25. I would not sail it as a cutter.

Ted Ison
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
8439 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2019 :  11:53:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I found this... Make sure you can access the places where the sides are bolted through the hull, which could be obscured by the anchor locker. The bow strut attachment point is probably accessible, but I might find something more substantial as a backer inside the bow than just the little washers they show, like maybe a wooden wedge--there will be substantial up and down stresses on those two bolts. They illustrate a claw anchor stowed through the roller opening--not all anchors would work that way, and the rode is captive to the roller. A particular anchor's position relative to the bow strut could be a question.

That's all I've got...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-USCG-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/16/2019 11:54:49
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ted
Deckhand

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Canada
20 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2019 :  17:19:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My boat has inspection ports inside the anchor locker roughly where the side mounts would come so there may be access. I agree with a backer plate rather than just washers, I have used aluminum plates on my other boat. When you say a claw anchor do you mean a Bruce or a Plow? Anyway, I got a quote tonight for the sprit, 3200$ so I'm not getting that one. There are other possibilities which I'll check. Thx for the comment.

Ted Ison
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5400 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2019 :  18:44:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You might look at the Selden removeable bow sprits. One that fits boats under 30' costs $521. https://www.mauriprosailing.com/us/product/selden-bowsprit-kit-72-mm-dia-max-length-2080-mm.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw_5rtBRDxARIsAJfxvYDKdKAzt6ms8xNPKPZjr8k45u_CdRkn0e3sMrGHQ0cCVpXXc1md2BMaAp8nEALw_wcB

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
387 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2019 :  22:30:28  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ted; If you're interested in mounting a light-air headsail sufficiently far ahead of the forestay to avoid conficts, have you seen what I had posted about having modified my pulpit rail for that purpose?

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31621

This is the equivalent of a sprit more than 24" long, but it doesn't actually increase the boat length or add a vulnerable appendage. The key is a hold-down cable attached to the stem fitting to resist the uplift force. This redirects the forces aft in line with the pulpit legs. It may at first glance seem risky, but when you look closely at the geometry it makes a lot of sense. And I'm pleased to say that it works quite well.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2019 :  09:44:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.net/cgi-local/MBRimg.cgi?+2095+4085

Look here. I built one that is removable. It worked well

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth



Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.
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HerdOfTurtles
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2019 :  20:09:48  Show Profile  Visit HerdOfTurtles's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ted,

I suspect a bow sprit will not be a worthwhile endeavor for you. Instead of a code 0 and bow sprit, I think a roller furling 170% genoa would be a far better investment and accomplish a similar goal.

The code 0 sail makers like to claim "hull speed in 5 kts wind!". Well, maybe close on something like a j/80, but not gonna happen on a Cat 25. For deeper downwind, a cruising spinnaker is your ticket and you can get them used pretty cheap.

I just can't believe a code 0 will be substantially faster than a 170 90+% of the time you go out.

1978 Standard Rig
Fin Keel
L-Dinette
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ted
Deckhand

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Canada
20 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2019 :  15:25:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Will look for a 170. Does anyone fly an asymmetrical?

Ted Ison
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5400 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2019 :  17:06:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't flown an assym. on a C25, but have flown them on other boats.

A symmetrical spinnaker is the sail of choice for sailing deep downwind. The spinnaker pole holds the spinnaker to windward of the mainsail, so the wind can get into it even when sailing nearly DDW.

The main disadvantages of a symmetrical spinnaker is that they require skilled crew to rig and fly, and you pay dearly for any mistake.

An assym. is for broad reaching downwind. It's limitation is that, if you try to sail too deep downwind, the assym. will be blanketed by the mainsail and collapse. You can prevent it from being blanketed by lowering the mainsail or, alternatively, by sheeting the mainsail in to the centerline, but, when you sail that deep downwind with an assym. you lose much of the speed advantage that the assym. offers. Other reaching sails have similar limitations to an assym.

Reaching sails boost your speeds downwind, but the mistake often made is to try to use them beyond their limitations.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1511 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2019 :  14:13:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Steve is exactly right about the use and limitations of an asym.

I have flown the asym that came with my boat. It has a sock, and the sail in the sock is raised and then the sock is hoisted after the boat direction, the mainsail, and the asym sheets are positioned for a broad reach. It's a blast to get good speed with gentle winds.

That description above of the Selden extendable bowsprit used with an asym was unusual, I think, since they used a special purpose roller that attached firmly to the fore end of the sprit. That device allowed them to raise a roller-furling asymmetrical spinnaker without a sock. Then they rolled it out. On that boat there were 2 other crew members assisting with the process. But not on my boat!

It looked so easy and foolproof. I wonder what the disadvantages are of that setup over the use of a sock?

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5400 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2019 :  18:06:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've been racing on a boat with an assym on a roller furler. The furled assym is attached forward of the forestay. Thus, when furled, it must, to some extent, create turbulence in the air just before it passes over the genoa. I can't tell, just by observing, how much that affects the boat's speed and pointing, but it must not be much, at least on bigger boats. Smaller boats might feel the effects more, but that's just a guess. By comparison, after an assym is furled into a sock, it's lowered to the deck and bagged.

Roller furlers are used on some of the fastest racers, including the big AC catamarans, but they're tightly rolled, which certainly reduces the turbulence that they create. If not rolled tightly, then a big flap of loose sailcloth flutters while the boat is sailing closehauled, causing an annoying flap-flap-flap sound and creating fairly severe turbulence over the genoa. I'm not sure, but I think the solution is to have crew keep tension on the sheets while the sail is being furled. I think it will also help to have crew raise the sheet high while furling, and help the sheet roll neatly and evenly from the clew down to just above the foot of the sail. That should help create a tight roll.

The roller furler is faster to deploy and to furl. The crew shouldn't have to go forward to deploy or furl the sail. With a sock, someone has to go to the mast to rig and raise the sail beforehand, and to bag the sail after it's lowered to the deck.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
387 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2019 :  20:56:57  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As Steve just pointed out, an asym on a furler makes it faster to deploy as well as to strike. It's also much easier to manage when sailing solo or short-handed. And it makes it possible to switch back and forth between the light-air headsail and the working jib.

I'd like to comment, however, on the downwind limitation of asym's that was discussed, particularly in comparison with a symmetrical spinnaker.

What makes it possible to fly a symmetrical is the pole. Usually an asym is flown like a conventional jib, but it can also be poled-out for deeper angles using a whisker pole. I've sailed wing-on-wing with my light-air headsail (since it was a custom build we didn't try to use a conventional designation for it). But, with that thing poled-out to one side, and a gybe-preventer holding the boom out to the other, I can sail through a rather wide range - on both sides of DDW - without changing the setup.

Granted, poling-out an asysm adds a lot more complexity than simply flying it with a free clew, but it's still far easier to manage short-handed than a symmetrical. There is a YouTube video out there showing a guy putting up, gybing, and taking down a symmetrical by himself, but I'd really like to see him strike and stow it when the wind picks up rather suddenly.

As to the turbulence it may induce when it's furled in front of the normal jib, a really light-air sail is made from thin fabric that can furl to a rather thin package. I doubt that would be much of an issue except for the most obsessive racer. In a laboratory wind tunnel it might be possible to notice some effect, but in real-world conditions I can't imagine it would be significant. Besides, once you've taken a turn or two on the jib furler you've introduced a turbulence generator right at the luff. I haven't perceived any conflict on my boat, but I'm not a racer.

On the other hand, I have flown both headsails together, on a close reach in enough breeze to support the heavier jib but not strong enough to over-power the boat with that much sail up. It seemed to produce noticeably more power than just the big sail alone, but I'll have to admit that it only works in a pretty limited range of heading and wind speed.

But what makes it possible to switch back and forth between the two headsails, which I usually do whenever I hook up the big one, is having the lighter sail tacked far enough forward - hence the topic of this thread. A sprit, to be used with a furler, would have to be long enough to provide a straight shot from the mast head down past the pulpet rail. On a Catalina 25 that would be almost two feet at deck level. That's why I decided to mount the furler right on the pulpit rail.

The one significant advantage that a sprit would offer over the pulpit mount like I've done is that it would allow for a longer luff. For any given leach length, based on where the sheet blocks are mounted, one could achieve a little more sail area along the foot. For a racer that would be important. However I want to be able to see under the sail when there are a lot of other boats around me, and I enjoy the view better without half of it blocked. Again, I'm not a racer.

There are usually a variety of pros and cons to any of the modifications we might consider, but I'd like to offer that - for the effort it would take to add a bow sprit to a Catalina 25 - it may not be the preferred alternative.


The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Edited by - Lee Panza on 11/25/2019 22:56:30
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ted
Deckhand

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Canada
20 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2019 :  12:19:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thx Lee, I will try and do something similar to what you have done.

Ted

Ted Ison
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