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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/09/2018 : 15:40:54

E10 has wreaked havoc on our outboard engines. Prepare for E15. Ordered today to offset economic impacts.
As a recreational boater, what countermeasures are available?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 10/09/2018 15:44:58

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2018 : 17:48:44

Google How to remove ethanol from gasoline. Interesting.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2018 : 18:13:35

More Pita suggestions are to buy those quart bottles of Trufuel at $6 a pop from the big box stores or find an airport that might sell you a few gallons of AvGas. Don't know if they would be willing to do that since your not a plane and a few gallons isn't worth their time but I guess you could try. Some might say to go to a gas station that sells ethanol free gas but I have never come across one around here.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/09/2018 18:26:51

HappyNow
1st Mate

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USA
99 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2018 : 19:36:56

I just went to website pure-gas.org which lists a surprising number of gas stations that carry ethanol free gas. Closest is about 25 miles, but getting 10 gallons in May should last the summer. The website also lists airports that will sell to you. Also, it seems to vary by state. California not too many, Nevada a little better, and Oregon a lot of stations. I have friends that go to Oregon frequently so I might ask them to get me 5 gallons next spring. Prices and octane vary widely. Looks like if you find a place near you, it's best to call first to see if they have it.

Michael Levin
Sailin' on Sunshine
C250 #402 WK
Lake Tahoe

Edited by - HappyNow on 10/09/2018 19:46:58

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2018 : 20:59:25

I haven't bothered to look at "removing etoh from gasoline" to see if it is useful or just more garbage, but removing etoh lowers the octane. If you use a blending pump that has an E15 option, fill your tank with E10 and then your boat tank. Really, E10 is not a problem for any late model outboard as long as it isn't stored to long. When lead was taken out decades ago, every subsequent engine problem was blamed on the absence of lead. I use E10 without problems. E15 is another issue, but don't blame the EPA. THANK YOUR CONGRESSMAN for taking corn/etoh lobby money so that the law they passed mandated that the oil companies must use a fixed minimum amount of alcohol each year and later voted to increase minimum amount used. Cars get better milage and people drive less now. The only way to follow the law is to require a higher etoh percentage in the fuel. It would have been easy to write the law to mandate E10, but our financially corrupt leaders couldn't afford to alienate the corn/ETOH industries. There is sound evidence that several other alcohols are superior to ETOH as an additive in every respect, but money prevents change.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Voyager
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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2018 : 22:11:13

The news story I read didn�t say why the increase from 10 to 15% was ordered. It didn�t seem that it�s optional. I�ll take a look for non Ethanol gas nearby. There are 3 general aviation airports within 25 miles of my home.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2018 : 06:54:32

quote:
I just went to website pure-gas.org which lists a surprising number of gas stations that carry ethanol free gas.

OK I gave that a try. I found 1 station on L.I out in Babylon. Not exactly close to me but for kicks I gave them a call. They do sell ethanol free gas at get this $11 a gal.

Most of there customers are race cars and vintage muscle cars.

quote:
but removing etoh lowers the octane.

I read that also but that could be just someones opinion. Never found any positive test yet to verify that claim but to stay safe you could start with 93 octane gas and end up with 87 or better. My manual for my new Tohatsu 9.8 states that it will run on 87 or higher E10 but higher amounts of alcohol can cause damage.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2018 : 09:35:16

Many marinas sell ethanol free gas. Valv-Tect is one such brand available in the Northeast, but there are others. The gas may cost more at a marina, but if it is ethanol free (or even just lower in content) it is well worth it.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2018 : 10:03:11

Valv-Teck is a fuel treatment that is added to E10 gas. It's not alcohol free gas.

From West adviser and Mercury Marine

E10 only, not E15, for your boat!
We still don�t know how and when E15 will be offered for sale, or if it will ever be sold in your local marina. We do know that you don�t want it in your marine engine, as the experts are unanimous on the subject. According to Mercury Marine: �Fuel containing higher proportions of ethanol is not compatible with many fuel system and engine components and, if mistakenly used, will cause irreversible damage to these components that will lead to engine failure and potential safety risks.� At this time, we can only warn you about the possibility of confusion and the risk of accidentally filling your boat�s gas tank with E15.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/10/2018 10:44:13

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2018 : 10:42:14

Valvtect also distributes marine gasoline--with their treatment/stabilizer blended in to "prevent the problems of ethanol." I don't believe it is ethanol-free.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2018 : 10:55:12

Dave you are correct. I drove tractor trailers for a living. All fuel trucks go to the same common terminal commonly called the rack. At the terminal any additives for a specific brand of gas (Shell,BP,etc) is added to the truck at that point then it is filled and delivered. So a truck that has a delivery to a Marina that advertises Valv-Teck would put the Valv-Teck additive in the truck then fill up with the E10 and make the delivery.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/10/2018 10:57:31

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2018 : 17:56:02

ETOH is definitely an octane enhancer, it has a much higher flashpoint than gasoline and that inhibits preignition. I don't remember precisely, but I think it was around 3 points. I disconnect the fuel line from the tank and run it dry before extended storage and dump the tank into the car or the lawn equipment can if it is going to be more than 2 months. I disconnect the line from the engine and just run it dry during normal use. The faulty law is why E-15 came about. The law requires the EPA to develop rules so that the required minimum amount of ETOH is used annually..

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2018 : 18:08:21

Most stations only have tanks for the top and bottom grades of gas and the pump blends the two for the grade selected. You could easily fill half you gas can with E-15 from residual in the pump if the person before you used E-15. It is extremely important to pump E-10 into your car before filling your portable tank if the pump is labeled as E-15 available.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2018 : 06:16:57

So is E-15 more expensive than E-10, or the other way around? I read that while the public was pushing for the EPA not to force E-15 and Congress to change the law, Big Ag was complaining that the price of corn had been dropping--apparently largely due to increased production in anticipation of E-15, and reducing volumes of E-10 because of increasing vehicle efficiency. Nebraska and Iowa have just as many US senators as New York and California... We're trapped!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2018 : 06:41:26

quote:
You could easily fill half you gas can with E-15 from residual in the pump if the person before you used E-15. It is extremely important to pump E-10 into your car before filling your portable tank if the pump is labeled as E-15 available.

I don't think there will be a choice between E10 or E15. Eventually E10 will disappear and all gas regardless of grade will be E15 or E85.

quote:
So is E-15 more expensive than E-10,

Technically it should be cheaper. The alcohol is cheaper than gas and that blending it into gas was supposed to stretch how much oil we were consuming while giving the farmers a new market for the corn. Sounds like a win win but since the alcohol is highly corrosive problems with engines started popping up especially in recreation vehicles and small engines that are used infrequently such as a boat due to the short shelf life and corrosiveness of the blended gas. Also alcohol per gal. has less energy(20%) in it verses a gal of gasoline so fuel mileage suffers. So it may be cheaper(we will see) at the pump but you may be buying more of it to go the same distance making it a wash.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/11/2018 09:03:14

Voyager
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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2018 : 19:40:36

I�d say all in all it�s a terrible situation for the recreational boater, classic car enthusiast and other recreational users of small engines.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 10/11/2018 19:41:35

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2018 : 14:09:55

I can verify that it was essentially a wash in cost per mile when I put E-85 in my old Grand Cherokee. Like I mentioned earlier, E-10 works an any engine if exposed gaskets and lines are replaced with ETOH compatible materials, but E-15 doesn't work in any older engines. Give it a couple of decades until petroleum becomes a niche fuel and the pain will really start. Jaguar will convert your old E-type to electric for about $100,000 if that helps, add another $80 - $100,000 if you have to buy the E first.. They're building a site in Georgia to restore/recondition your old Jag using factory parts that will also do the conversions so you won't have to ship it England.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2018 : 20:17:54

I noticed my marina offers Valv-Tech brand gasoline at the gas dock. Half the time I buy gas there (more expensive but a time-saving convenience). The other half I fill my 3 gallon Tempo gas can at the local filling station. Even though I get 89 at the dock and 87 at the station I don�t really see any difference between them. I asked the gas dock attendant about E10 ethanol but all I got was a blank stare.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2018 : 09:35:01

For those of us who only need to fill a three gallon tank a few times a season the extra cost for fuel such as Valv-Tech, or throwing in additives is just a minimal cost minor inconvenience. Power boaters burning 10-30 gallons per hour have the real challenge, as do those with older automobiles, trucks, etc. Detroit won't chime in as they would love to have consumers need to replace older vehicles. Hopefully marine engine manufacturers -- outboard and inboard -- will modify their engines accordingly.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2018 : 14:11:55

I'm a little worried about my big Honda, which now has 12 seasons but a little under 1,000 hours on it. Replacing it would cost as much as a new Accord.

The main problem is my 110 gallon tank--almost as much as I use in a typical year (I've averaged a little under 1.9 gallons per hour over the life of the boat.) Old E-15 undoubtedly invites more phase separation problems than old E-10. A partially empty tank also invites water absorption followed by phase separation. My strategy, following discussions with mechanics, is keeping the tank pretty full (including over the winter) with heavy doses of two stabilizers with different chemistries. It's a cruel world out there for a $+!inp*++er...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2018 : 16:21:36

Well I'm kinda glad My fuel tank is plastic and not aluminum. Honestly I could easily see people being killed from perforated aluminum fuel tanks and rubber fuel lines over time. It's corossive and adding another 5% will just speed up the process.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/21/2018 16:45:19

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2018 : 19:21:21

Aluminum is not the worst case... The worst is probably the motor yachts from the '80s into the 2000s with gas tanks built into their hulls with fiberglass, much like the ballast tanks in C-250 WB hulls. It turns out that unlike sea-water in a C-250, ethanol eats the resins in fiberglass, sending some kind of crud into the fuel systems and destroying monstrous inboard engines, as well as eventually creating leaks like we've heard about with a few C-250 WB boats. Besides having to replace the engines, owners are faced with tearing into the bilges and structural grids of their boats to put plastic gas tanks in those spaces. I'm sure everyone here is sympathetic...

But E-15 is a threat to almost all boaters, classic car owners, "plain old car or truck" owners, gas-powered equipment (lawn tractors, etc.) owners, and a... (never mind--a politically-charged issue.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/21/2018 19:25:33

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2018 : 07:14:40

I realize there have been countless threads on this, but I�ve tried four types of gasoline treatments in the past:
o Startron - the blue stuff
o Sta-bil - the red stuff
o Techron - pricey
o Marvel Mystery Oil - also red

Among members of the forum, (1) are there any preferences?, (2) any benefits? You could think of them as cheap insurance but does it really have any measureable results?
Checking Practical Sailor advice on this? I�ve been a subscriber off and on for years, but can�t recall an article.
Looks like they did some updates in August 2012 and November 2016 editions to their original evaluation in �08.

Quote from Practical Sailor November 2008
�Conclusion
In our opinion, the makers and retailers of these additives aren�t doing a good job telling consumers what these products do and don�t do. None of the additives had any measurable effect on the amount of water that separates due to overnight cooling. It is Practical Sailor�s view that any products claiming even limited ability to prevent or delay phase separation should pass ASTM test D6422 using 85-degree, saturated E-10 cooled to 32 degrees�a reasonable worst-case scenario.�

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 10/27/2018 07:28:12

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2018 : 11:10:23

My personal opinion is that these additives are hyped by the manufacturer to sell a product. They fall just short of curing cancer. If there was an effective additive it would be already blended in by the oil company's to combat the effects. Really why would they lose money to them. Again just my opinion.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/27/2018 12:01:27

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2018 : 13:06:56

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

I realize there have been countless threads on this, but I�ve tried four types of gasoline treatments in the past:
o Startron - the blue stuff
o Sta-bil - the red stuff
o Techron - pricey
o Marvel Mystery Oil - also red
Among members of the forum, (1) are there any preferences?...

My aforementioned 110 gallon tank and off-season fill-up strategy includes the use of two stabilizers with substantially different chemistries (as I understand them): Stabil Marine (green, not red) and Startron. From all I've seen and heard, the two are somewhat complementary, not redundant, and there's no such thing as "over-stabilizing". I've been following this regime for 12 years now, with no apparent issues. But I haven't tested for what might be at the bottom of my tank.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

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