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New to Sailing Need Advice

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markd2
Deckhand

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4 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/22/2002 : 21:17:35

Hello,

I'm very new to sailing. Basically I've sailed with friends and have decided to purchase my own boat. After some looking around I've settled on finding a Catalina 25. I've heard good things about their quality and they seem affordable. I mainly plan coastal sailing around North & South Carolina. I've located a 25 (1983 fixed keel) the price is approximately $4400 and I'm told its needs all new standing & running rigging and some other "minor" cosmetic repairs. The owner estimates the needed repairs at about $1200. I'm told that it's a nice looking boat except for some simple cosmetic work. The boat is in the water. I'm still trying to determine is the boat worth traveling 5 hours to see. With the volumns of information I've just given you does this seem like a fair price (in the ballpark). Approximately how much will it cost to replace the standing & running rigging on a Catalina 25 and is it a difficult job? Is their anything particular about the 1983 Catalina fixed Keel that I should be considering? Is this an o.k. boat to learn on? What's the meaning of life? Just kidding on the last one. Thanks for any help!

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 21:39:58

Hi Mark,

I'm also really new to sailing, so I'll let others tackle most of your questions. The one thing you are likely to hear from many others is to pay to have the boat surveyed. More often than not, the cost of a survey is well worth it ... an independent opinion of an expert sure beats the owner's "I gotta' sell this boat" mentality when it comes to objectivity.

Good luck!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 21:54:56

Mark,

I think the easiest question you asked was, "What's the meaning of life?".

Have you read the "Shopping for a Catalina 25" article in the Tech Tips?http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/summertm.html

And the article on "Self-appraising a Catalina 25"
http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/summert2.html

As for your question on the standing rigging replacement cost, Catalina Direct sells a kit for $467.95(std) and $472.95(tall).

The running rigging is a little harder to price, since there are so many options available, but will likely cost in the hundreds of dollars.

Is $4,400 a fair price, I don't know. It is almost impossible to appraise a boat that one has not seen, but an asking price of $4,400 is towards the lower end of what these boats are listing for. Check out http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/index.html.en and do a search on Catalina 25. This will give you an idea on asking prices and also you will find a lot of information by reading the descriptions and looking at the pictures. Inspect the sails, motor, and rigging very carefully since these tend to be the higher ticket items. Additionally, you will probably get a lot of responses that will advise you to obtain the services of a professional marine surveyor to inspect the boat. This can be a worthwhile effort since you are very new to sailing and may not know what to look for.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 04/22/2002 23:14:39

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 22:43:25

<center>Get A Professional Survey</center>

Get a "Buyer's Survey" done by a highly recommended, experienced, sailboat surveyor. This should cost a couple hundred dollars, take at least half a day, involve both in-the-water inspection and a haulout, and produce a carefully written report of 10 to 30 pages, possibly with photos of problem areas.

Be there while the survey is being done. Ask lots of questions, even dumb ones. You're paying this person; they work for you. Take lots of notes, bring a camera and tape recorder.

If time permits, read a book on boat surveying before you start, so you'll know what ask and what to expect. Look up the titles on <www.Amazon.Com>, and then see if you can borrow a book from a local lending library. Reading a book or two doesn't make anyone a surveyor, but it can help you get the most for your money when you hire one. Two good books are:

"Surveying Fiberglass Sailboats", by Henry C. Mustin

and

"What Shape is She in?", by Allan H. Vaitses

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... approximately $4400 ... needs standing & running rigging, "minor" cosmetic repairs ...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>If that's really all it needs, it sounds like a fair to good deal to me. By "needs running rigging", do they mean just a bunch of new rope, or also the blocks, cam cleats, and winches? Also, these boats were available in a bewildering variety of optional configurations from the factory, not to mention all the owner modifications that may have occurred since then. You pretty much need to have at least a very experienced sailor look at the boat with you just to see what's there.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... is the boat worth traveling 5 hours to see ...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>When I was shopping, I drove an average of 4 hours each way about 4 times to check out boats.

And by the way, congratulations on choosing a Catalina 25. As you said, they are well built and a good value. Plan on doing lots of work on your boat. That's part of the fun!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 23:01:22

Hi Mark, take a look at the technical tips section, under the C25 heading there is a section on shopping for a C25. It is very detailed and gives the novice lots of advice on what to look for.
My short list would include through hulls, all through deck fittings, chain plates, stanchions (sp?) look for dimpling around bolts. the section I mentioned has a lot of detail. I would want to know the condition of the sails.

as for the retrofit. here is a partial price list from Catalina Direct. www.catalinadirect.com

Standing rigging-- $467.95
Stainless spreader kit $47.30
retrofit ss backing kit $67.95
(for standing rigging, improves bearing under deck some later models have them, in 83 or 84 I think they became standard)
external halyard kit $479.95
(this leads your halyards aft and makes single handed sailing easier)

your running rigging would include new sheets which would probably cost another $100.00 or so. it depends on where you order.

You are not alone in looking at a boat needing some repairs. I am in the process of restoring a 77 C25 hull# 153. I enjoy doing this sort of thing. My sister asked me why I wanted to buy a boat for $6000 and then spend $2500 restoring her when I could buy a boat in better condition for $8500. I asked her "what would I do all winter"

You may ask why so much for a 77? I sail in the great lakes where boats come out of the water in the fall and are mostly stored indoors. This one was really nice except for cushions and the galley. She also needed new tanks (holding and fresh) she also had a portapotty which is not allowed in the north channel so a new marine head is going in. I'm telling you this so that you don't think what you are facing is so daunting.

I hope you have a great time looking at this boat even if it is not the one you buy. I drove 5 hours twice to inspect and reinspect this and several other 25s before making a decision to buy. go ahead and make the trip and enjoy getting into the lockers and bilges. It will hone your boat buying skills. You are begining with your first boat. this is my 8th and the pleasure of finding, fixing and sailing is fresh every time. it is never routine. there is something magical about pulling away into open water, having the pull of the sails begin to heel the boat and the sense of movement builds as the sound of the water gurgles. I live for that moment and all the crawling on my back or drilling and grinding in some excruciatingly painful position leads to that moment. All the travel and adventure that follows springs from that first moment when the boat you have lovingly restored begins it's reicarnation.

Best of luck and fair winds

John V. Nin Bimash II

Edited by - on

Ken Cave
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 00:43:42

As far as I am concerned, age is irrevelant when purchasing a boat. I have seen newer boats that are in terrible shape, and others that are much older that have been kept up to "bristol" condition. Frankly, you get what you pay for!!

When I sold my Catalina, the first couple that saw it purchased it as they knew what I did to my boat (details in the tech section under Dragon Tail)

The "new" boat that I purchased was about $5000.00 over the average price, but the owner just finished upgrading the boat with thousands of dollars of goodies before his wife decided that she was not going sailing with him, and moved inland! (and you folks that have seen the new Dragon Tale know what I am talking about!!)

Answer? If you find the boat you are looking for, have it surveyed!!
Don't look for a bargain-you will get what you pay for-TROUBLE

Ken Cave

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 08:45:21

1. At least do yourself the favor of getting a deck and hull inspection by a qualified surveyor. This will probably be a 1 or 2 hundred dollars. He will check it for moisture; the deck and the hull being the biggest PITA to replace and or repair. If the boat is a swing keel, have him do an inspection of the keel trunk too.

2. Standing rigging should run you between 5 and 7 bills. It will vary a bit by area.

3. Running Rigging can cost you anywhere from 80 dollars to thousands. If it is just the line and not any hardware it will probably max out at a few hundred dollars. (sailne.com is having a cordage sale right now..or at least they were last week and do so frequently)..The reason these figures are so wide and varying is that it all depends on how you rig your boat. There are wrong ways of course, but there are also about a million correct ways.

What I would recommend is to do the following. Take a look at our tech tips section on the website first, get some ideas of how people have things set up. Look at the prospective boat you are talking about purchasing and see how it is set up. Then walk the docks at a marina. Ask questions of the owners there and see things first hand. Most Sailboat owners will gladly explain what does what on their boat.

After all that, if you just want to replace exactly what the other guy had, take a look at a few websites and catalogs and price it out. In my estimation, 2 halyards, a boom vang, a main sheet, 2 jib sheets will cost you about about 400.

DW

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 04/23/2002 10:42:21

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 09:23:18

(1) You may have to survey the surveyors first. I've looked at the written surveys and the boat it described and you would think they surveyed the wrong boat!
(2) Don't get emotional about the boat until after you are sure it's a sound and worthy vessel.

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ(Ode to Joy)

[url="http://catalina25-250.org/photo0.htm/"]<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/ode075.jpg" border=0>[/url]

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 14:34:23

I too have a 1983 fixed keel. The latest pictures of my hull rework might give you something to look at. I replaced the to hulls with through hull, repaired several blisters and applied a barrier coat then bottom paint. Have a look under the general forum. I would also be glad to help with any information you would like about the 83. If you pan on spending the time to do all the work yourself the price sounds reasonable. After all of my rework I would estimate my boat value for the local market at 9 to 10,000. I would be very carefull to be sure the deck, cabin roof, and hull have no major problems and that no corrotion exists on the mast base, crane (top)or spreaders. Im also sure you can find someone near you that would be willing to help with some of the jobs.

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 14:35:04

And as for the answer to "What's the meaning of life?"...
Just go sailing; you'll find it.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

dave andersen
1st Mate

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85 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 14:41:46

Just had my c 25 rerigged Jan. 2002: new standing, new harken furler,
new mast head ( hey tend to crack) new 135 genoa, new running
rigging, new wind vane, new topping lift. Total cost labor+
materials = 3900.00

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 14:45:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And as for the answer to "What's the meaning of life?"...
Just go sailing; you'll find it. -John Mason<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
You are very wise man, John. Have you ever thought of growing a flowing white beard and sitting up on a mountaintop!

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 17:04:18

Only if he can find a way to fit wheels to his keel...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 18:31:22

The water up there is all frozen and difficult to sail on, but I hear the winds are good!

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

markd2
Deckhand

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4 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 23:54:47

Thanks a lot for the great advice and encouragement. I hope to learn a great deal and become a knowlegeable contributor to this group. Perhaps, I will find the meaning of life sailing :) If not I will settle for having a ball. I'll let you know how I do.

Mark

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