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Pointing Ability

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Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/19/2005 : 11:07:02

Last evening I had the opportunity to participate in the local yacht club's (informal) Thursday evening race. The yacht club had 12 boats with 10 of the boats being various size J-boats. Winds were 12-14 kts with 1-2 foot seas. I had a friend racing with me who is a somewhat experienced racer. What I'm leading up to is that it amazed me how much higher the J-boats were pointing. We doubled check everything...new main and genoa trimmed tight, fairleads back, traveler set, outhaul tight, new bottom job 2 months ago. Is that just the way it is when comparing racing and cruising boats? I was a little disappointed but still had a great time...beatiful sight seeing those spinnakers popping!

Don B
86FK/SR #5216 "Mighty M"
Southwest Florida

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2005 : 13:26:48

Your keel is a fat stump compared to the elegant lifting shape of the J keel. Your sheeting angles are not as good, your hull form is not as good. You cannot accelerate well to create higher apparent wind angles. We have one thing going for us as a racing boat, we have a longer waterline than most boats our size. You will never point as high as a real racer.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2005 : 13:41:42

Most of the smaller J Boats are designed to do one thing well...race. Catalinas are designed to provide cruising accomodations appropriate to the size of the boat, and to also be a fun club racer. Js have hardware and adjusters that can be used to trim the sails to the nth degree. Catalinas are rarely equipped that way. Cruisers know how to trim sails well, but racers know more different ways to trim sails for every condition of wind and sea. Most racers constantly re-trim their laminated racing sails all around the course, powering them up and down with every puff and lull. Most cruisers trim their dacron cruising sails for each leg of the course, and do very little tweaking until they round the next mark. Although you did a bottom job two months ago, racers fair the bottom and keel to perfection, and then burnish it. Most cruisers use good bottom paint, while racers use the fastest racing paints. Most cruisers scrub their bottoms 2-3 times a summer, but racers scrub them before every race.

All those differences help racers point higher and foot faster, but, if you do many of those things with a C25, you'd be surprised how well it can keep up with a J24, especially on the windward leg.

In order to out-point us very much, they have to really flatten their sails, and steer a course that is on the borderline of pinching. When they do that, little mistakes in helmsmanship cost them a lot, because their light racing boats lose speed fast when their sails luff even briefly. If we accept the fact that we can't point with them, and bear off a couple of degrees, constantly keeping our speed maximized, we can often make up for their pointing ability by the time we reach the windward mark, because when our C25s are powered up, their extra weight makes them good at maintaining raw speed.

In short, don't try to beat them at their own game (pointing). There are some things that our boats do as well as, or better than them, and we need to sail them in a way that makes the most of those qualities.

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2005 : 14:23:37

I sail my Catalina 25 on Tuesdays and a J-24 on Thursdays. There are lots of reasons the J-24 is faster. But in a handicap race, they give you about 66 seconds a mile.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2005 : 14:58:56

How I would love a 66 second differential between my TR (at 222) and the J-24 (on Canyon Lake it's rated 171). I can sometimes scare him (on corrected time) but seldom manage to beat him - those extra 15 secs would do nicely!
Derek
P.S. Steve M. is correct(as usual!) We cannot point with the pure racing boats - but, as he mentioned, there are a few things we can do to improve our chances.

Edited by - on

TRogers
1st Mate

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USA
90 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2005 : 16:30:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Don B
 outhaul tight,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is my third summer with my Catalina and this year I finally started understanding some of the fine tuning of the sails. One of the things I learned was that the outhaul should be loosened in light wind to make for more curve and therefore more power. In heavier winds it should be tightened to make for less curve to depower the sail.

Do I infer from this that loosening the outhaul for more curve/power will also lessen the pointing ability? In other words, there is a trade off between power and pointing ability in light winds?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2005 : 16:44:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Do I infer from this that loosening the outhaul for more curve/power will also lessen the pointing ability? In other words, there is a trade off between power and pointing ability in light winds?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes and no. Generally, creating a deep pocket in the sail decreases the boat's ability to point. But, by loosening the outhaul and creating a deep pocket in light air, you'll give the sail a more powerful shape. Making the sail more powerful will maximize the boat's speed in the light-air conditions. Increasing the boat's speed increases the apparent wind. By increasing the apparent wind, you increase the boat's ability to point.

In short, the pointing ability of the boat decreases as boat speed and apparent windspeed decreases. By trimming the sails in the way that makes them the most efficient for the speed of the wind in which you're sailing, you are causing the boat to point as high as it can in the available wind.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/19/2005 16:46:48

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2005 : 17:02:02

The C 25 is a very good down-wind boat. You can make up a lot on the faster boats using a down-wind spinnaker or an asymetric cruising chute. You need to move crew weight forward as well since C25s tend to squat in the stern, which means drag. Also, if you have a vang, use it on the down-wind leg only. You need to tighten it to close the leach in the main. It opens and spills air as the boom is let out because the main sheet can no longer control it effectively.

I have also found that we tend to over-tighten the genoa by improperly adjusting the sheet car. In moderate conditiions such as you described, it should be adjusted such that the sheet is a straight line extensioin of the leach of the sail. You get more drive with this initial setting. As the wind and seas build it can be adjusted stern-ward to flatten the sail.

Finally, Steve and Frank are right, we have certain advantages that you must be aware of to sail to the boats full potential. If you trim to conditions and sail to your best speed for a given leg you will max your potential and thus your chances of beating the J's in corrected time.

Edited by - on

Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2005 : 20:55:54

Thank you all for the great advice/insight. I'll try posting a few pics from the race...

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2005 : 10:52:30

Lovely pix and a great discussion!

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2005 : 11:09:50

Beautiful pics, Don B.

Here's an interesting observation. I was out last Wednesday solo sailing. Wind speed was estimated about 8-10 mph. I had my main and 150 up, no tension on the boom vang, and I was racing a Starwind 19 and a Precision 23 (only they didn't know it). Anyway, I was pointing really, really high. Never have I pointed so high. The red tag on the back of my windex arrow was INSIDE the two angled flags indicating the no-sail zone. I wasn't luffingor anything. I did have my traveler set. Needless to say, I sailed by the Starwind like he was standing still, and I ran down the Precision like bull in Pamblona.

Then Friday, winds were strong, approaching 15. and I couldn't point even close to what I was pointing on Wednesday. Is this because of the difference in wind speed. Should I have used the 130 sail?

Anyway, Wednesday was great sailing, same with Friday and Sunday!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2005 : 13:08:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Then Friday, winds were strong, approaching 15. and I couldn't point even close to what I was pointing on Wednesday. Is this because of the difference in wind speed. Should I have used the 130 sail?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hi Ben! If the only thing you were concerned about on Friday was pointing, then I think you're right that the boat would have pointed better with the 130 in the stronger winds on Friday. But if you were racing, and wanted to use the sail that would get you around the race course the fastest overall, then you might have used the bigger sail.

Previously I said "By increasing the apparent wind, you increase the boat's ability to point." But that principle only holds true until the boat becomes overpowered. When the boat becomes overpowered, dacron sailcloth stretches, and the draft of the sail becomes fuller and moves aft. When we flatten the mainsail in those conditions, it moves the draft of the mainsail forward. Sails are designed to be used in a certain wind range. Good sail trimming can extend the sail's range about 3-4 knots above the optimum designed wind range, but when the windspeed increases more than that, it's ordinarily time to consider changing sails.

Racers often use a sail even further above it's designed wind range, however. Especially those of us who race on courses on which each leg is only 1-2 miles long. As a practical matter, we can't change sails for each leg on a relatively short course. If you use the 150 to beat to windward, you might be overpowered, but, if you choose a smaller sail, then when you bear off on a downwind leg, you might find that the other boats with their 150s will pass you. So, racers choose a sail that is the biggest that they can carry efficiently in the wind conditions, even though they might have to struggle with it on the windward leg. A bigger sail might not point as high as a smaller one, but, when averaged out over the whole course, it might be faster. On the other hand, if the wind is just too strong to carry the 150 efficiently, and you're the only racer who has the courage to go to the smaller sail, you'll outpoint them to windward without losing any ground to your opponents off the wind.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2005 : 13:17:04

Thanks for the explanation Steve. What you say makes sense.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2005 : 14:34:09

Experience also tells us that, in heavy air racing conditions, when you have exceeded your ability to maintain control of the boat (you are rounding up and loosing time/speed to the fleet)and you have done what you can to keep control, you should step down a sail. You will find that you will sail as fast without loss in time and distance to the fleet and thus to far greater advantage.

I once sailed in our club championship in winds gusting to 35 and 3-4 foot seas. I was reefed down to two reefs in the main and a 60% storm jib. While the rest of the fleet floundered around trying to mainitain control with their full-up sail inventory, I and a Westerly Tiger tied for first ovarall. The Westerly had his 150 furled down to something less then a 100 % and two reefs in the main as well. Even in these conditions, I was still rounding up, but not nearly as badly as the competition, and I still consistantly sailed hull speed or greater.

Except for one or two boats, I don't think the rest of the fleet in the above example had a sail inventory or second reef they could step down to. The moral is that if you are serious about racing in all conditions and want to be competitive, you should invest in the equipment to do so. The corolary is that, having made the investment in all those goodies to make my boat competitive, I have decided that solo cruising is what I want to do and reequipped with cruising gear. I now only race to get out on the water between cruises.

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