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Seal Swingkeel in pickup bed spray-on?

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waltex
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/24/2005 : 09:31:08

Experienced friend recommends sealing SK with the stuff used/sprayed on pickup beds. It's pretty tough stuff. Wal Mart has some only in black by Mar Hyde. It's pretty cheap and it's available elsewhere in different colors now. Anyone have comments, please?

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2005 : 10:09:46

I've considered the same thing. I have used truck bed coatings on my boat trailer fenders with excellent results... not a spot of rust after 2 years.

If you do give it a go, I'd recommend applying regular marine coatings/fixatives to the keel before putting on the bed liner. This is a job you don't want to do again for another 10 years. Keep us posted.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2005 : 10:14:02

waltex,

This could be an opportunity for you to contribute some helpful research to the group.

Take good detailed photos of, and notes about, the surface condition of the iron keel before you apply the liquid bed liner. I suspect thorough preparation is at least as important as what protective coating is applied. Let us know how it works out.

-- Leon Sisson

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2005 : 11:37:25

It's a clever idea, but it's hard, grimy work to do a good bottom job, and if you're going to do that much work, you want to be sure it's done right, so you don't have to peel it all off and do it all over again.

If your friend has actually done it, and it's been in the water for a year, and you've had a chance to see for yourself how smooth it is and how it has held up, then it might be worth the risk. The difference in cost between the bed liner material and a can of VC Tar is probably only about $100, and for that amount, I probably wouldn't take the risk of such a difficult job going badly.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2005 : 14:03:09

Or you could just drag a drouge chute!

I have never seen a bed liner that wasn't rough, can it be done smooth?

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waltex
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2005 : 17:47:15

EF says it'll go on smooth. Have nothing to see. He was gnl mgr of a sizeable boatyard in Corpus Christi & has done it many times for saltwater. I'll be on a lake. Will take pics before & after with a report. Thanks for your interest. Decided to retro everything on this old lady and give her a whole new life for next spring. We've been bonding while I learn. It's a slow work with backorders, very hot & humid in East TX, travel, & other projects so taking my time & doing it right. I got out of the hurry I was in. Happy sails. Old Waltex

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 08/24/2005 : 23:02:22

>"I have never seen a bed liner that wasn't rough, "

The stuff I used (from a can) came out pretty smooth... really no worse than ablative bottom paint. The stuff the pro shops use for bedliner comes out a lot rougher.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2005 : 07:33:09

I was wondering what the hassle would be if the coating fails, starts to peel off or flake or the surface attracts lots of slime or critters, how much trouble it would be to remove and then put on a "normal" bottom coating.

In any event, I wish you the best of luck, and please keep us posted. Who knows, your discovery just may get you a trip to Stockholm.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2005 : 09:10:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I was wondering what the hassle would be if the coating fails, starts to peel off or flake or the surface attracts lots of slime or critters, how much trouble it would be to remove and then put on a "normal" bottom coating.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That's a good question. Aside from the fact that it would be a terrible amount of work, the first problem is that you don't know how to remove it. It's probably some kind of plastic rather than tar. Will paint stripper remove it? Will sandblasting cut through it, or just bounce off of it? If sandblasting and paint stripper don't work, what else would you use to remove it?

I checked Mar Hyde's website, and the can that's pictured says it's "abrasion resistant," and that suggests that sandblasting might not work well. The website doesn't tell how it can be removed. The can also says it has a "safety" finish. That implies that it has enough roughness to improve traction (friction). Clambeach says it comes out "pretty smooth." That might be fine for cruisers, but would it be smooth enough to satisfy racers?

I don't want to seem all negative about the idea. It would be neat if someone found a good alternative to "the high-priced stuff." But Walt asked for our thinking, and I think he should understand the risks if it goes bad. Before I get into a situation, I like to know how I can get myself out of it, if necessary, and I have a lot of questions about this, and not many answers. Maybe someone else has had experience with Mar Hyde and knows the answers.

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waltex
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2005 : 16:03:55

Thanks for the interest, comments, suggestions and cautions. EF has agreed to work on boat w/me. By the way, in addition to his many years as GM of large boatyard he has a masters in marine engineering from Texas A&M, Galveston. He sez they used 'cold tar epoxy' for over 20 yrs as an expensive marine product in refurbing saltwater boats. Now, it is the same epoxy product used in spraying PU bedliners such as Rhino Liner. Being extensively used now and without the marine label it is pretty cheap and still effective. The auto industry has upgraded many of their materials to the point that much can be used for marine application, especially coatings. This can be rolled on, sanded smooth. Without sanding will have a random dimpled effect similar to a golfball. EF calculates loss of speed might be .2 knot, not enough for me, a lake daysailor, to worry about since I will not contend for the America's Cup. Go faster? Sand it smooth. He said they can put material on bedliners to roughen them up and he has a way of beautifully refurbing non-slip areas on decks in a similar way. EF sez this can also be used to paint the hull if sanded smooth. Maybe it wouldn't oxidize?? Not sure I'm ready for that, but I'm willing to try on keel and bottom since he'll be there w/me. I want it permanent and low or no maintenance, just like my yard at home. We'll start soon & I'll be back to you in a few weeks with pics & report. Maybe we'll start a revolution!!! Enjoy sailing while I'm working... Waltex

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2005 : 20:43:25

Hey Waltex,
Make sure you take pics and post them for us if you can. I'm glad to hear about your engineer friend. I have worked with coal tar epoxies back in my construction management days in industrial construction. Really tough stuff. I didn't realize that's what bedliners were made of.
Keep us posted.
you just may get that trip to Stockholm to pick up the next Nobel Prize.

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2005 : 20:59:31

Two items: (1) There was an article some time back in "Passagemaker" magazine by a guy who used truckliner on his Trawler decks and was very pleased with the outcome. (2) I just saw a TV piece saying that the US Navy is using a variant of truckliner in coating applications on vessels in marine environment, sorry no details I was just "dialing thru", probably we will hear more if true, Fair Winds Ron srsk Orion SWFL

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2005 : 06:30:09

I wonder how much difference it makes to have it above, or below the waterline, and what kind of surface prep or primer is required to get a good bond below the waterline. I won't do it to my boat until other folks prove the system.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2005 : 07:27:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 I won't do it to my boat until other folks prove the system.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank, don't do it to your boat period. This is an iron incapsulating plan. The hull is an after thought to the primary goal. We are better served by VC-17, it actually adds speed! Speed = distance/time, therefore distance =speed*time what part of that do you want to mess up?

Walt, what is the weight estimate, i.e. how much does a gallon weigh and how many gallons?

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Gloss
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Response Posted - 08/27/2005 : 07:02:35

Hey Frank,
Don't worry, I'm not planning on using it at all. My hull job will be VC to be sure. I'm just trying to figure out if I should first use the Interprotect system first, or VC tar, or both as bottom surface prep coats.
And I do follow your advice when you give it. We Franks are very smart folks. Just look at the boats we sail.

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Gloss
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1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2005 : 07:20:53

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boatdoc
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 08/27/2005 : 16:32:46

I am the person that has been consulting with Walt regarding his Catalina. I propose to do the entire bottom of the boat below the waterline. The boat had sat for a number of years in a rather dirty end of the lake here and had grown a full beard. After cleaning with a pressure washer the hull has hundreds of small blisters that can be broken with a thumbnail and are open directly to the fiberglass mat beneath the origonal finish.

I will try to address some of this in order and welcome any opinions.

One of the questions related to how smooth the finish would be.

Depending on the particular product used there are thinners that will yeild a smooth finish and provide a chemical bond with the primers that are specific for fiberglass. The finish will be the texture of a golf ball at the very worst and can be sanded easilly (much like sanding bondo) in the early stages of its curing cycle if a mirror finish is desired. Though I am sure the products are similar I have always used Line-X and you can obtain ground rubber in different grits to be added as a nonskid material if desired. If no grit is added this has no nonskid properties.

The weight is equal to or just a bit less than using the old marine grade Cold Tar Epoxy for sealing fiberglass below the waterline that has lost its protective coating which is the case here. We swithched to using this in the mid 80's when our supplier of Cold Tar Epoxy went to over $100.00 per gallon.

As someone stated. Preperation is everything when it comes to applying a good solid finish and this is no different though this material has a filling a building capacity so small imperfections need not be dealt with singularly other than to insure they are clean and free of contaminants.

The first boat I personally did was a 23 foot Kittywake that belonged to a good friend and lived in salt water only. That was over 15 years ago and the last time it came out for a bottom job the finish was as sound as the day it was applied with no lifting or bubbling to be found anywhere below the waterline.

I was first intorduced to this material when I was in the Navy and we used lots of it for everything from nonskid on decks to sealing the bottoms on neglected ships launches. Either we added the grit for the nonskid or rolled it on without it. (It is slicker than snot on a doornob without the grit

)

I am not suggesting that someone should do this to a hull with a sound bottom but in the case of a hull that has suffered neglect and subsequent damage it is a solid repair with lifetime results.

Someone mentioned it being used for nonskid on decks. It can be used sucessfully in this fashion. Finish your decks in whatever fashion you prefer. Tape off the areas you wish to apply the nonskid. You Scotchbrite the paint in the taped off areas and apply the material using whatever grit you prefer to give you the nonskid properties you are looking for and remove the tape while the material is still wet so it gives a feather edge.

It can be sand blasted but not bead blasted and sanding is done in the same manner as anything else just using the heavy grit papers. As with any material used in a marine application do not breathe the dust so respirators are required.

I will be happy to answer any questions and enjoy any feedback that someone might have.

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boatdoc
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2005 : 16:44:54

I missed this in one of Walt's replies and did not find an edit function so the second post.

I do not propose to use this above the waterline just below and for the nonskid on the decks and in the cockpit if Walt decides to do it there.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2005 : 08:18:31

Welcome to the forum, Boatdoc. My biggest concern is how a do-it-yourselfer can remove the coating if necessary. I have removed old VC Tar with paint stripper designed for fiberglass cars and boats. If the pickup truck stuff is cold tar epoxy, then it sounds like paint stripper will also remove it. Is that correct?

Thanks for joining the forum and telling us about your use of this product. You've answered most of my concerns. As an especially finicky old racer, I probably would continue to use the high-priced stuff, in the hopes that I'd get an extra .015 knot of speed, but for a cruiser, it might be a perfectly acceptable product, especially if you're bringing back an old boat.

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boatdoc
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 08/28/2005 : 19:52:42

Hello Steve. My name is Steve also.

Removing this takes some effort and aggressive sanding. I would probably sand blast the coating before going on to machine sanding. This material is applied in the same way you would a cold tar but it is more of a true epoxy coating so it laughs at most chemical strippers and the ones that would soften it enough for scraping would concern me as to the damage to the glass underneath when you were done.

For a boat that spent its time on the race course I would not recommend using this as it will add a bit of weight but that balances against the original (I finally managed to spell it correctly) coating that will be sanded off to get to a solid base.

Remember that this is simply a base coat and would require painting to give long term antifouling protection in salt water. This will get crud and fuzz on it just like the standard gell coat but nothing in fresh water penetrates it so you simply pressure wash and all is well.

A benefit to this material I did not think of mentioning earlier is that it is impervious to chemicals so those that sail in water with chemical polutants need not be concerned with the damage to the bottom of their boats. There was a chemical spill in the port of Corpus Christi many years ago that ate the underwater finish off of all of the boats docked at the far end of the downtown piers.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2005 : 20:05:21

Do you think I could use this stuff and save money on condoms?

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 15:59:02

Probably not, Frank, but if you coat your inflatable date in it she will last MUCH longer, Ron in FL

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Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 17:49:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ronrryan
 Probably not, Frank, but if you coat your inflatable date in it she will last MUCH longer, Ron in FL<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well Frank, I'd have to say that Ron won that one!

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 19:43:13

Hey Ron,
I'm rarely rendered speechless.
Good one

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2005 : 09:36:00

I SHOULD have exercised more self-restraint. But I couldn't resist. Fair winds, ron Orion SW FL

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