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Motoring in high winds

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Sales
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/10/2005 : 09:57:37

At what wind speed is maintaining directional control difficult while motoring? Headwind, beamwind, downwind, turning? Our fin keel Catalina 25 has a Johnson 9.9 hp outboard on the standard adjustable motor bracket.

As we approach the windy season I'd like to anticipate control issues before heading out in higher wind speeds. Also in preparaing for anchoring away from the marina fixed dock in a tropical storm, I need to decide what the maximum wind strength is that I can reasonalby expect to motor from the marina into a sheltered part of the creek and anchor.

I welcome your observations and experience. Richard

Edited by - Sales on 09/10/2005 09:58:52

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2005 : 11:54:18

Richard,

I use as a rule of thumb not to venture forth if a flag is standing at right angles to its pole and shivering crazily.

Just an index of my personal acceptable level of danger and pain.

But everyone has to find their own threshold of danger.

Val on Calista # 3936

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2005 : 12:20:50

Sales,

I'd say a lot depends on your prop's bite in the water. A 10HP extra long shaft with high thrust prop will provide control in much worst conditions than the same powerhead with a short shaft and high speed 2-blade prop. An inboard with a 3-blade cruising prop would have the additional advantage of keeping the prop submerged in conditions that might pitch the prop of even an extra long shaft to the surface.

Or, to put it another way, in the worst conditions any sane person would choose to put a C-25 in, the boat will be controlable so long as a 10HP motor can apply its full power to the water.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2005 : 12:26:01

It all comes down to physics. It a given boatspeed, the rudder will not overcome the forces on the bow.

At 5 knots of wind it is about .3 kts boatspeed.

10 kts wind = 1 knt BS
20 kts wind = 2 kts BS
30 kts wind = 3 kts bs
40 kts wind = 4 kts bs.

Above 25 kts you will need all the power you have. But should be able to sail with a reefed main alone or a small jib.

Manuvering around a dock can be a real pain. If it is not choppy, I like to back into the wind as the boat will not fall off the wind. There is an amazing amount of control available in reverse as long as the prop stays in the water.

I am by no means an expert, but I think the boat is capable of traveling with winds up to around 40kts. It may not be much fun but is doable.

Tom.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2005 : 16:04:37

The biggest problem in heavy wind conditions is getting the boat to turn and/or hold a course other than dead downwind or (perhaps) dead upwind.

There's so much pressure on the bow that it's very hard to make it come around with just the outboard. When the boat is being blown downwind as fast as the stern can turn... the boat will just go sideways. :<(

What are the safe limits in your particular situation? There are many variables that affect that answer.

Distance to lee shore or shallow water?
No searoom = danger.

How much wave action?
Waves will push the boat around and make it difficult to hold a heading... also they can cause the boat to pitch, which results in motor ventilation and loss of control.

Current?
Current running against or across wind can make things really nasty.

What's the proposed course relative to the wind?

What's the situation at your destination?
Do you have to do some tricky manouvering, multiple anchor sets, etc?

As a WAG: Depending a lot on the above factors, I'd start to worry about control 'issues' above 25 kts. Or maybe even less if I was really close on a lee shore.

Pure IMHO here: If you think a storm is coming, DON'T WAIT UNTIL THE CONDITIONS ARE DETERIORATING. Go up the creek early, get the best spot and get secured and get out.
If the storm passes by... what the heck, then you just go fetch the boat.

Lots of people have gotten themselves in trouble by trying to move their boats after conditions have already become dangerous.

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2005 : 21:32:19

I suggest spending some time maneuvering using the motor and tiller together, hard over both ways and also forward and reverse. I just went daysailing with a fellow in a Hunter WB 25 whose motor will not rotate as far as mine, and is difficult for him to access whilst handling the tiller, and he suffered some damage to his hull trying to come up into the wind in a narrow and crowded canal. I could have managed it in my boat--Just! We are both in a quite narrow canal that gives me exactly enough room to back out and turn, if the motor is turned 90 degrees hard over, first one way in reverse, then the other way in forward. No fun for an old fat stiff bird like me, under the stern rail. But he is much worse off. Use makes master, said the oldtimers. Good luck, Ron Orion SRSK in Fla.

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2005 : 22:21:26

while trying to cross Pottaganassing Bay motoring into a 30 kt. N. Wester, we had 5-6 footers on the nose and could barely make 1kt. after Linda and both girls were good and seasick we unfurled a hankie size bit of jib, fell off to the west and sailed to Detour village at 7+ kts. We were very happy to be out of that mess.

so, under field conditions the C25 with a 9.9 honda barely makes a knot in an estimated 30 kt head on wind. very scientific. this measurment may be different in slightly denser salt water.

Edited by - on

joegeiger
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 14:29:24

I had a humbling experience in my '86 SR FK earlier this summer on my way up Narragansett Bay from Newport. When we left Newport the wind was blowing at 16knts from the SW with 1 ft waves, which pushed us up the bay on a comfortable broad reach. Once we got about halfway there the wind shifted to the North at about 25knts and the waves increased to about 3-4 ft with breaking whitecaps. We were making little headway with reefed main alone and Hope Island was getting dangerously close on the lee. I made several attempts to tack but with the waves, head wind and no headsail we just couldn't get the bow to turn through the wind. I made the decision to start the outboard and tried to motor away from the lee shore. After several attempts we managed to get the bow across the wind but it felt like we were floating in an endless swimming pool with Hope Island still just as close as it was before. The prop was leaping out of the water with each passing wave. I opened up the throttle all the way and we slowly proceeded away from the island at about 1-2knts.

It made me realize that there are limits to what I could do with this boat. I was glad to be able to experience it with a happy ending but it left me wondering if I had kept the head sail up would we have had more control. I felt uncomfortable with the amount of heel (even with the 110 hanked on) so I took it down. Since then I installed a lev-o-guage to measure the angle of heel and it has made me much more confident when I can see we are only heeled 25 degrees. Not knowing makes it feel like 45.

People get impatient when the wind doesn't blow hard enough but I look at it as training... It gives you the opportunity to practice sailing at a leisurely pace so that when things do pick up it becomes second nature and you don't even have to think about it. It just happens.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 14:57:35

Should a swinger crank up the keel in these conditions if the decision is to motor. Will the retracted keel result in increased speed.
Recently I was caught in a thunderstorm, so I lowered sails, raised the keel and motored as fast as I could to get back to the marina.
Previous threads suggest leaving the keel down for the purpose of balance. Any opinions?

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 14:58:24

>"... wondering if I had kept the head sail up would we have had more control."

IMHO follows:

You probably would have been better balanced... and had a little more power to fight off the lee shore. In your circumstances, your best option would likely have been to leave the 110 up and single or double reef the main. Install your jiffy reefing (single or double line) and you can tuck the first reef in 30 seconds.

As far as heel angles... if you still have good rudder control you're basically ok. You'll lose the rudder bite and round up (hopefully not down) long before any water comes in the cockpit.

Edited by - on

GeorgeB
1st Mate

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90 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 17:31:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 Should a swinger crank up the keel in these conditions if the decision is to motor. Will the retracted keel result in increased speed.
Recently I was caught in a thunderstorm, so I lowered sails, raised the keel and motored as fast as I could to get back to the marina.
Previous threads suggest leaving the keel down for the purpose of balance. Any opinions?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If motoring speed is the issue, my opinion and experience would be to go keel up. But you'll go faster(or use less fuel) if you motor sail if the conditions permit. Generally my rule is sails up, Keel down.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 18:07:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by joegeiger
 It made me realize that there are limits to what I could do with this boat. I was glad to be able to experience it with a happy ending but it left me wondering if I had kept the head sail up would we have had more control. I felt uncomfortable with the amount of heel (even with the 110 hanked on) so I took it down. Since then I installed a lev-o-guage to measure the angle of heel and it has made me much more confident when I can see we are only heeled 25 degrees. Not knowing makes it feel like 45.

People get impatient when the wind doesn't blow hard enough but I look at it as training... It gives you the opportunity to practice sailing at a leisurely pace so that when things do pick up it becomes second nature and you don't even have to think about it. It just happens.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The other day, (Saturday) I was out on our lake with my 80% and a reefed main. The Catalina 350 was out as well and he said he had sustained gusts of 32 knots on his instruments, that was what was forecast with steady wind in the mid to high 20s. I love that stuff and sail in it often; never without a headsail!!!! I was surfing over 7 knots and beating in the upper 5's in that wind. Without the head sail I would have been being beaten at 1.5 and having a terrible time. I am at the end of my second year with a 25 and my second 25. The freeboard of these boats do not help them in high wind, they must have forward power or they will not make way. These boats have mast head rigs so we are forced to use both sails to have any balance to our power. I recommend that you get a smaller headsail for the real fun and get back out there next time it blows hard. One other thing, when you are fighting to keep her on her feet, let off the boom vang and haul the traveler to weather. Your main will twist off at the top spilling the air that is making you heel, it will drive from the bottom of the sail and you will have a much better chance than leaving the main down low and hard. The down low and hard setting is for high wind but wind that you are still handling, twisting off the top is for when the wind is handling you!

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 18:44:56

... One other thing, when you are fighting to keep her on her feet, let off the boom vang and haul the traveler to weather. Your main will twist off at the top spilling the air that is making you heel, it will drive from the bottom of the sail and you will have a much better chance than leaving the main down low and hard. The down low and hard setting is for high wind but wind that you are still handling, twisting off the top is for when the wind is handling you! - Frank

Frank ... that is excellent advice.

I would never have thought of that, because the truth is, I have no idea how to use the traveler ... most of the time, it just sits there centered.

I hope I'm not the only one who is clueless about using that thing ... would you please give me (us?) a quick rundown on how to use the traveler?

Thanks!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 19:19:31

>"Previous threads suggest leaving the keel down for the purpose of balance. Any opinions?"

In my experience, the boat is both faster and better handling with the keel down.

The drag due to stern squat (keel up) seems to be far worse than the extra drag of the keel in the down position. Note this is on an early vintage C25. Later models have a bit different balance.

Also, trying to motor cross wind and manuver at the dock is far more difficult with the keel up.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2005 : 17:18:19

Richard,

Lots of sage advice on motoring here. But then, why motor? On open water your boat will handle much better, and the ride more comfortable, under sail. As Frank suggested, you need to get a smaller head sail - a found that a 60% working jib works well with a reefed main, and enjoy the ride. Jim Baumgart just bought my 60% after I added roller furling - the best alternative. He may have used it and verify my experience. I would use the motor to dock or moor where its's relatively sheltered.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2005 : 21:57:03

There is a lot of excellent information packed in here.
We learned an incredible amount this, our first year sailing, thanx to you guys.
Its taken a whole year, but we are now at the stage where the Admiral and I are both comfortable heeled over and we don't drop sail and run for cover when the big winds come along (although we did run for cover when lightening came along)

The information about keel up and down is very important, because I believe now, that I was doing it wrong. I'll leave it down.

Frank's info on sail balance, boom vang and traveller position just caused a large light bulb to go off - I've been reading Sail Power and have had some issues with relating what I read with what I actually do on the boat. Frank's comments just brought a whole lot of theory into practical perspective.
Recognition of where the student is on the learning curve is a gift good teachers give.

Edited by - on

mwalkup
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2005 : 11:39:05

Frank sir, I'll second that request from Buzz !

If you'd be so kind as to share some pointer's on the use of the travler.
Sadly if I don't start putting it to some use its going to rust in place.
Thanks.
Mike
83fk/tr

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2005 : 15:33:51

Guys - if you want to use the traveler, then you will need to modify the control lines. As factory installed it's as useless as mammary glands on a male bovine!
Here's my mod and it works extremely well:-

This way the crew can adjust it and the helmsperson doesn't have to rummage around behind their back.

Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2005 : 16:12:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mwalkup
 Frank sir, I'll second that request from Buzz !

If you'd be so kind as to share some pointer's on the use of the travler.
Sadly if I don't start putting it to some use its going to rust in place.
Thanks.
Mike
83fk/tr
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am starting another thread so more people can contribute to the traveler/sail trim subject.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2005 : 13:14:30

There was a comment somewhere above about pushing the motor and tiller "hard over"... That can be useful with the motor (for sideways thrust) but it's best to resist pushing the tiller past about 45 degrees. Hard over, the rudder is a brake--not a rudder. I've seen many sailors push it hard over around docks and get into trouble when the boat doesn't respond. Hold it to 45 degrees and she spins right around.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2005 : 18:46:40

As long as there is wind the C25 is safe in big weather - assuming you are prepared. When the seas are 5 feet or greater at short period (under 5 seconds) the outboard motor becomes very marginal. If you are motorsailing, one tack or the other will be lifting the motor. Combine that with short period seas and you are going to be popping the prop out of the water on every wave. This is bad. If you are headed downwind the motor is likely to get wet. Also bad.

So long as there is wind you can make progress and save the motor only for docking or anchoring in calm or protected waters. Do not plan on motoring in big winds or seas! You will dunk it or the prop will be out of the water too much.

This is a boat you have to sail in these conditions. Get the main 1st or 2nd reefed, get the small jib on (or roll up your roller) and let 'er rip!

PS.

You can't sail to weather in big winds without a jib. Thats why I bought the 60.

Have your reefing lines run and practice BEFORE you need them.

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2005 : 21:06:25

Dave, right you are--but, I meant as far over as I could get'er, along with the motor in the same plane, just to get out of my slip, which (like the bumblebee) is actually impossible to accomplish in the normnal course of things. Would not normally turn the motor (or rudder) that far in customary procedures. Fair winds, ron srsk Orion

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2005 : 23:01:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 
Have your reefing lines run and practice BEFORE you need them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hey Jim: Looking at that nice pic... Where're your reefing lines?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2005 : 00:05:48

He drags Bonitas for sea anchors

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2005 : 12:05:14

if you look really carefully, you can just see them. I have invented my own system. I have a 2 line system, each has a deep U hook on the end. In the picture, the hooks are on the flattening reef cringle. Release the clutches, and pull in the flattening reef (winch often necessary). If the next reef is needed, release the clutches, and move one hook at a time to the next cringle. This way, with 2 lines, I can control all 3 reefs (flattening, first and 2nd).

The lines do not go up the sail, through the eye, and back down to the boom. The line is only visible on one side of the sail.

The aft hook can be moved from the cockpit, the forward one requires a trip to the mast.

Edited by - on

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