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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

New sailer need advice

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HARRY
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/10/2005 : 17:56:21

I am a new sailor. I bought a C250 Water ballast last fall and sail solo weekly, year round. I have found that when there is “good“ wind that thing get very exciting. At what wind speed do you reef in and how much? I have the factory sails and a 150. Also how far can I safely lean this thing over before weather helm takes over? That has happen a number of time and is not as much fun as you might think.
Harry

BlueSky

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2005 : 19:29:32

Harry, welcome to the forum. What took you so long to get here? Don't forget to join the National Association, the best $20 you will ever spend. Now I don't have a WB so I can only speak for the wing. I reef the main at 10-12 and the jib down to 100 around 15-18. We tested my wing for weather helm breakout and it occured at 32 degrees. Just flat ran out of rudder. PennyII has been at higher angles, but not on purpose and not for long.

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At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 14:01:15

Never owned a C250, so can't help with the weather helm question. However, when you are sailing and you think that maybe a reef will be in order in the near future...do it then. I do not use a certain wind speed but when the thought of reefing passes my mind, I do it. Some will disagree, but when alone and not racing, I just roll up the genoa a couple of turns...it's so much easier than reefing the main.

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bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 15:52:50

I go in the opposite direction with reefing Harry. I'll throw a reef in at the dock if there is a "good wind" blowing. I'd rather shake a reef out than put one in on the lake. Don't know about "leaning over" never let it get that far. Other C250 WB sailors with better rudders than I have should chime in. "Bear" on the hard in upstate N.Y. C250 WB

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 16:03:11

I don't own a 250 but have sailed them. The C250 likes to be sailed upright, so think in terms of reducing sail area sooner, rather than later. You'll go faster, and weather helm will be much less of a problem.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 16:42:13

Harry, it all depends on the settup. With the 2nd generation high aspect ratio rudder and the center board trimmed and cleated aft slightly, the 250 water ballast will provide heeling forgiveness to 45 degrees without being lost to a round up... but with the 1st generation rudder, and board fully down, she will round up at any thing over fifteen degrees. With the 3rd generation (short) and the center board trimmed aft, she can be held from rounding up at heeling angles under 30 degrees but will require so much rudder offset (stall) that drag will kill speed until the boat essentially losses forward momentum.

Steve is right... keeping her fifteen degrees or less provides best performance. However, it is quite helpful to enjoy a forgivness zone well above 15 degrees to avoid roundups in the puffs.

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bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2005 : 19:57:56

Harry;
We also sail our 250 wb nearly every day, that means some days in little wind but this week it meant, lots and lots of wind. As mentioned by Bear, I like to put the reef in at the dock if it seems like its going to be needed. And like Bert, if reefing passes your mind, do it. We had a second set of reef points put in, the boat only came with one, we don't use the second set often, but sure love it when the wind comes up. I find that sliding the jib cars back to spill wind at the top of the jib, and putting in a good tight reef keeps the boat on its feet. Keeping the angle of heal down doesn't reduce speed, but does reduce leeway.
Good sailing
Bill
C250wb #134 Serendipity

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tbader
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2005 : 15:47:24

This is my first season with a 250 WK (after sailing a Cal 20 for many years). I have been well served by the advice given above: if you are thinking about reefing, it is time to reef. I am very impressed with how well the boat sails with a reefed main and full (135%) genoa. Before that I was impressed with what a hassle it was to wait until you are overpowered (and your family is overwhelmed) and then realizing that you should have reefed sooner.

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HARRY
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2005 : 12:57:22

Thanks for the advice. Hope we have some good wind this weekend to try it out.
Harry

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Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2005 : 21:40:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by HARRY
 Also how far can I safely lean this thing over before weather helm takes over? That has happen a number of time and is not as much fun as you might think.
Harry
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Harry
I'm new to sailing (2 years) but have learned quite abit over the last two years by entering our racing series at our club. We had 17 races this year (17 last year) and I spent all of them on a cat capri 22. We sailed in up to 28 knots with full main and #1 headsail. Last Sunday I had a chance to crew with one of the fastest boats on Lake erie a 36 ft Mumm. We sailed in 12-15 with 18 knot gusts - full sails and spinnicker.

I've since become very comfortable with full sails on my C250 in pretty brisk wind and seldom reef the main - although I do furl my jib a bit sometimes.

I guess the point I am trying to make is go for it and find out for yourself the point where your boat begins to suffer weather helm and forces a round up. It is not going to kill you - just pops you up. You will not sink your 250 in 20-30 knot wind. That said, running in wild gusts with the potential for a knockdown will stress your rigging.

I may be corrected here but if you are running a full main and have furlled your jib too far you will be incouraging a round up as the jib will not hold the bow from rounding up. We experienced this in our first race in pretty good wind when we were flying our #3 sail. We rounded up 3 times and came in 3rd. We vowed never to put up the #3 again. The boat was imbalanced.

Just having fun

Turk

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2005 : 09:23:14

Turk, your quite right about a quatering run in a breese and to some extend maybe even a broad reach. In those conditions especially if there is much wave action, the c250 w/b doesn't like the main only and very possibly not any main.

The 250 requires a large rudder, and when that rudder is impacted by a quartering sea, it causes a yaw moment that has little resistance in part perhaps because there is no skeg. In those conditions, headsail only and vaning the rudder as the sea slides under and stalls the rudder are helpful to avoiding a broach.

However, a word of caution about running headsail only. IMHO, speeds should be kept conservative, with a margin of forgiveness underneath hull speed. The reason is simple, that once hull speed is reached, the forestay may get overstressed.

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HARRY
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2005 : 15:01:45

Thanks for all the help.
I have been told that a BACK STAY ADJUSTER should my next purchase.
Has anyone done this? If so what configuation did you use. The web site I am looking at is: www.harken.com/rigtips/back.php
HARRY

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2005 : 17:49:17

The 250 uses a modified form of a B&R rig which doesn't normally have a backstay and obviously then no backstay tensioner. When the B&R rig when conceived, a forestay tensioner rather than a backstay tensioner was envisioned.

Comparing the 250 with the 25 for example a difference can be seen.

The c25 employing a backstay tensioner will see the headstay firm up and with the mast head pulled back the main will flatten in the middle because of a mast with forward middle bend shape (prebend).

The 250 will see the mast head pulled aft to tighten the forestay but with the raked spreaders instead of forward lowers that hold her center mast position, the shrouds will relax their pressure on the spreaders and actually yield a fuller mains'l.

For this reason, the 250 normally is not run with a backstay tensioner and a firm (depowered) rig is set, in essence like having a backstay tennsioner permanently set on a conventional rig.

The use of a tensioner would mean that the main can never be depowered unless one also decided to set a running baby stay... an esoteric piece of running rigging employed to hold the center of the mast forward when the backstay tensioner is set. See my web site for details if interested.

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/babystay.html"]running baby stay[/url]

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HARRY
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 15:35:02

Since the back stay ajuster can not be used, should the shrouds be tighten to flaten the sail or should the forestay be tightened? Is there a forestay tensioner? The runing back stay is more than I feel I could handle. I sail solo most of the time.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 23:32:52

Harry, the forestay should be fairly tight on the 250 to eliminate forstay sag and excess pocket in the forestay. Most 250 owners, especially wing keel owners find it difficult or impossible to get mast prebend so a vertical mast seems to be the goal.

A tight forestay will tension the upper shrouds pretty tight... and then the backstay can be tightened enough to keep it free of the mains'l roach. The lowers are tightened just enough to avoid leeward mast bend on a broad reach. Overtightening the lowers will pull aft bend in the mast and pocket the mains'l (not wanted).

Yes, the running stay is probably something only a dedicated cruiser or hardcore racer would contemplate. btw, it is a running baby stay rather than a running backstay... but thats ok, I use the term having never heard of one before... maybe I've invented something. Many (larger) boats have standing rigging baby stays of course.

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ceryes
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2005 : 17:18:48

Harry,
I am quite surprised that you have a 150 head sail on a Water Ballast boat. I did't think Catalina recommended anything bigger that a 110, which mine has. This is the first year I sailed it and it seems like it has plenty of sail. My old 25 was much stiffer in the water and could be handled quite comfortably in a high wind. The 250, on the other hand is quite light. I really don't even like to sail it if the wind gets much over 15mph.
Paul

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zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2005 : 09:43:20

my 250 WB 1998 came with a 135 (or might be a 150). When fully open it extends back to the forward portion of the hatch

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