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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Dockominuim as an investment?

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/02/2005 : 10:07:44

I know that we aren't supposed to use curse words on this forum, but I just don't know a politically correct term for dockominium.

It seems that everywhere along the cost small independent marinas are being sold to investors and developers and dockominuims are the result. For those of us who plan to retire in the next 15 years and would like to buy a 38 footer and live near the coast the realization of this phenomina looms darkly.
So with that said, does anybody have any personal knowledge, or maybe friends who have bought a dockominuim? I wonder if they appreciate like other traditional real estate investments. I saw online one for sale in Oriental NC for 40 grand, and you would be allowed to rent it out. Dockominiums in Marathon go for as much as 150k!

I don't have an MBA so am not qualified to compare what the rent vs. what you could make in the market or treasury bonds would be. You would also have to factor in any fees, and future appreciation, if any. Of course the object would be to secure a place for a larger boat in the future.
Condo's with docks out back go for really big bucks.
Of course after these last two hurricanes one would need a sanity check before moving near the coast. Can you imagine what next year's insurance bills on boats and property will be?

If we take a Pollyana approach to dockominiums, we will just be ignoring the harsh realities of the future.

5 years ago, before taking up sailing I dreamt of living in a ski area in the rockies and having a log cabin in the woods. Expensive for sure too. Who knows, maybe 5 or 10 years from now the increasing expense of sailing will completely turn me off and this will be a moot point. Maybe buying property in Costa Rica is the answer. I'm diverging now.

so what does this learned group say about "Dockominuims as an investment?"

Frank Gloss
Formerly 89WK/TR
85 Ericson 32-3 shoal draft "Molto Bene"

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2005 : 11:33:59

I would re-think at least 3 times a decision to move to the coast of Florida or the Gulf...I've just got this thing about hurricanes! One great advantage of San Antonio is that we are too far north for hurricanes, and too far south for tornadoes.

Derek

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2005 : 11:43:11

My former girlfriend who was based in San Antonio in the Air Force said you must be careful what color shirt you wear in certain neighborhoods. Everyplace has it's risks. I grew up (or maybe just misspent my youth, I haven't grown up yet) in Miami and yes, hurricanes suck. I was visiting my mom when a little storm named Andrew came.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2005 : 11:52:01

The conversion of marinas to waterfront condo towers is a real problem here on the east coast of Florida. I wonder where the occupants of those abominations think they're going to get their boats hauled out? I have yet to see one of these conversions retain the travel lift and its slip. Quite the contrary, they tend to forbid working on boats in the covenants.

To buy into one of these monstrosities is to become part of the problem. (I know, easy for me to say...)

The lawmakers in Florida are presently trying to figure out how to balance the rights of property owners (real estate speculators with high priced lobbyists) against the needs of a million or so boat owners (few of whom own or can afford to buy waterfront property or politicians). It's rapidly getting to the point where it's hard to find a place to splash a boat. The town I live in is planning to build another public boat ramp to relieve some of the congestion. The 1,000 or so people who move to Florida every day, many of them bringing boats with them or planning to get one after they get settled, help to increase the urgency of this issue. I'm not trying to tell any of you what to do, or to discourage more sailors from coming to Florida. I'm just trying to describe how the situation looks from here.

( I hope this hasn't violated our defacto ban on political posts. I'll climb down off my soapbox now.

)

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2005 : 14:09:34

Yes Leon, I'll agree that the concept of dockominiums sucks. That's not being too overtly political. I hate them too.
But when looking at them from a purely investment viewpoint (yes, that makes one part of the problem, how many of one's mutual funds in your 401k invest in tobaccoo companies?) it takes on a whole other meaning.
How much are they going for, and how have their values changed?

I burn fossil fuel in my truck and sometimes eat red meat too.

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2005 : 19:22:07

Frank,

Same thing is happening up here on the lake. I'm in the only working boat yard left on the lake.
The MVYC is in the same cove I'm in and some of the slips are in their classified for sale or rent if your interested to see what they get:
http://www.mvyc.biz/MVYC%20Classifieds.htm

Edited by - existentialsailor on 10/03/2005 19:23:05

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2005 : 19:42:54

with the prices of dockominiums I have seen, and I did do a search, I would have to give up sailing first.
The only cheap ones I found are on Clear Lake near Houston.
Not an option for me.

Edited by - on

tingwc
1st Mate

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31 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2005 : 19:44:05

I suppose it really depends on the location, monthly fees, and rentability... but I can't really imagine a boat slip renting out for more than 400 bucks a month. Would it really be worth it to shell out 100k to own a boat slip only to rent it out for 400 bucks a month minus maintainence fees?

A better question is *where* and *how* to find slips for sale. I've tried doing some internet searching and haven't really come up with anything truly concrete.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2005 : 20:01:29

Strange timing, I got a letter from my marina(Aqualand)here in Atlanta informing me it has been sold and the new owners will be contacting me regarding their plans. Aqualand is said to be the largest (slip wise) marina in the USA. I can't wait to see what they plan to do with it.

BTY I own 2 slips in NC, I'll gladly rent for $400per month.

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2005 : 10:19:49

West Coast of Fla sounds same as East Coast. About five years ago I had a chance to buy a 25 foot boat slip in a very small marina attached to our Property owners assn, for about seven grand. Today this would be about twenty-twentyfive if you could buy one, none for sale. I could rent one presently for one hundred a month. There are now no do-it-yourself boatyards between Tampa Bay on the North and Charlotte Harbor on the South, and two local yards have just closed forever to be changed to Condos. When I was a kid in New York, on South Shore of Long Island, at the bottom of every road that went to water there was some kind of marine activity, rowboat rentals, boatbuiders, repair shops, gear and tackle, bait, etc. Now there are only a few boatyards left, and those are of the high price, droop-snoot rocket ship types, as far as I know (don't get back much anymore). Eventually we will all be trailersailors or rich. Fair winds, ron in Venice, FL (orion #2343)

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2005 : 17:36:50

You folks need to think about moving to a Great Lakes State. Big water sailing, lots of marinas and boat storage, great people and places,no salt to rot your boat, no hurricanes or tornados. Of course, you would have to take up sking for 6 months out of the year, but hey, it makes the other 6 months of sailing all the more enjoyable.

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2005 : 20:17:41

Hey Al,
As a sailor and a member of the National Ski Patrol I have always maintained that as long as my activities involve water I'm happy.
whether solid or liquid I have a great time.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2005 : 00:07:41

As I approach the "big 5-0", and the little aches and pains of osteoarthritis start making themselves felt, I have had to accept the fact that as much as I love my C-25, it may not be in the cards that I will still be able to handle a sailboat by the time I retire. So, any plans I may have had to buy a big boat and a berth (dockominium or regular marina) on the ocean are slipping away pretty fast. Having to abort my San Juans cruise last July after only four days on the water, due to a flare-up of tendonitis, was kind of a warning of what might be in store over the next few years; on top of my diabetes and back problems, maybe I won't be sailing any more when retirement arrives in 2015. I haven't heard anything about California marinas being converetd to dockominiums, but we HAVE lost some of our local Municipal marinas to private ownership (Richmond Marina Bay and Emeryville Municipal marina to name two). The facilities didn't change noticeably, except that the launch ramps that used to be free now charge a daily fee for launching, and an overnight fee if you leave your tow vehicle in the lot after 10:00pm. The slip fees stayed about the same, $6.50/ft/month at Richmond I think.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2005 : 09:12:45

Hey Larry
I'm approaching the big 55 and arthritis is an ever present thing. I work out 6 times a week and that keeps it in check. Full range of motion and strict form is paramount. I also have a degenerated L3-4 disc so I do lots of core work. All of the orthopods and neurosurgeons I work with agree that this is the best approach. I have had good luck with glucosomine/chondroitin supplementation. there is some positive research coming out on this too. Maybe I could be a personal trainer for rich retired folks in Florida when I retire to finance my sailboat addiction. (or provide other services for rich retired women with sailboats)
But everyone is different.
I have recently checked out a dockominuim project in Carabelle Florida and slips go for 100 to 200k. A project in Charleston have slips for 170k. Of course you still have association dues.
I'm almost sorry that I started this thread, and search, it's really depressing. Those of us with "good old boats" will be shut out.

Edited by - on

RoofRoof
Navigator

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USA
186 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2005 : 09:25:19

When I was shopping for a slip 5 years ago, I found some slips for sale for about $20-$30,000 in a dockuminium near me. Being a financial planner, I figured that it would be smarter for me to just rent a slip for $250 per month. Then numbers didn't make sense to purchase. DUHHH! 3 months ago when our slips were sold to build condos, I did the search again. The same slips are now selling for $130,000 minimum. Too bad I didn't buy 5 years ago. So, for now I'm renting one of these but actively looking to buy a few slips. Just not crazy about paying $130,000 plus.

Edited by - on

tingwc
1st Mate

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31 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2005 : 13:29:15

What have you found to be the general "monthly" fee to be which comes with owning a slip?

I've seen places which charge $200 a month maintainence fees, and some about $60.

Anyone?

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2005 : 22:23:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">but I can't really imagine a boat slip renting out for more than 400 bucks a month.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In Fort Lauderdale I have been quoted, with a straight face and "You're not the only one on my list" attitude...$1500.00 a month...ok that was a 45 foot slip, but still.....

(No I did NOT sign up...)

Captain Oscar, USCG/OUPV ATP/737-757-767
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - Oscar on 10/09/2005 22:23:46

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2005 : 18:05:57

Jacksonville is the say way. Pablo Creek Marina sold out to codo building developers. It was on the ICW west bank. Beach Marine tried to develope codos but Jacksonville Beach is a seperate municipality and voted the construction down. I remember about seven or eight years ago I was looking for a slip to rent. I called about an ad in the paper and I remember it was very expensive to me. But it was a deeded slip. It was just down the road from where I grew up. In fact, all the woods I used to run in along the St. Johns River bank are developed now. No more playing Tom Sawyer and Huckelberry Finn or Jungle Jim or Tarzan. Just a quarter acre lot there is now $750K!, no house. It is like that south of town too.

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2005 : 20:45:40

I've been thinking about this some more....

The laws of supply and demand will do their thing.....Once there are many dockominiums, there will be many for rent, because certain people that own them get out of the boat.....and selling might not always work....

Rates will be market driven.....not based on what people pay for the slip.

The real problem is working on your own boat......try driving to a dealership and asking them to put you on the lift so you can work on your car.....

Boatyards are more an more going that way.....

Of course, if there is enough of a demand, someone will start a "we haul, you scrape" yard.....

Everything will be allright.

Yes the cost WILL go up, but that has nothing to do with HOW the slips are there, it has to do with how many people are vying for water access.....

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2005 : 22:41:17

I just hope that I don't get priced out of sailing and have to go back to something cheaper, like backpacking, or windsurfing, or kayaking. Of course that's not too bad of an alternative. Of course that's harder for us young 54 year olds.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2005 : 08:54:30

Come inland, sail a lake. I cannot imagine being happier sailing than we are here in Kansas. As with most things, (skiing, sailing, golf, sightseeing, etc) we find traveling to do the expensive things occationally and coming home to sanity is the best option. Nearly everyone in my club charters at least once a year.
I am now a life member of my club and will have no dues for the rest of my life, (buy 10 get forever) and our slip rates are going through the first increase in 10 years to $600 a year (up from $515)with unlimited power and water. Maybe many of you who own 20+ year old sailboats need to embrace reality and consider retiring to the real world of the midwest. We just had a couple show up last week from Florida with their Tartan 28. They are thrilled to be in a sailboat only club on a nice lake where no one exstorts bottom cleaning and hauling from them and the cost of ownership is predominantly the cost of the boat and not the marina. Most of you have looked through the pictures in my sig site, do we look unhappy?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2005 : 10:35:33

The demise of run of the mill marinas and boatyards is probably the result of an overall decline in boating in general.

Around my end of Lake Erie, it appears that boating in general is on the decline, particularly among today's youth who seem to prefer the excitement of PWC's over larger craft, especially sailboats, which may require the services of a marina. When I was first bitten by the sailing bug over 10 years ago I was in my early thirties, but most of the sailors at my marina were either retired or close to it. Today, I'm still among the youngest sailors, but the average age is definitely moving upwards at a quick pace.

As far as occupancy rates, at marinas around here they appear to be going down as well. Last Sunday my marina held their annual slip lottery for next season where 89 people showed up for one of 125 slips. 10 years ago, 160 would have signed up for the 125 spots. I imagine next year even less people will want slips.

Maybe the only way for a marina operator to make money in this environment is to sell it off for dockominiums.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2005 : 01:20:51

Don, I think you are observing a regional issue. If they don't rent, they certainly won't sell. Other parts of the country are seeing increases in boating activity.

Captain Oscar, USCG/OUPV ATP/737-757-767
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C-30 #681, Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - on

sailorman
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2005 : 21:26:43

I grew up in Oklahoma, learned to sail on a lake in Ohio, and currently sail on Lake Lanier, in Georgia, about three hours fron the coast. A slip at Aqualand (my marina) cost $1600 a year, (ten years ago the same slip was $700). Inland lakes are not immune to price increases; it will catch up. Having grown up in the midwest, I wouldn't want to go back. I plan on moving closer to the ocean. if I ever can afford to retire, it will be on or near the ocean. there is always a way.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2005 : 21:56:42

Hey Sailorman, I'm just across the cove from you in the cheap slips, ZA dock. ($1355)

Edited by - on

khamburger
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2005 : 18:57:26

"5 years ago, before taking up sailing I dreamt of living in a ski area in the rockies and having a log cabin in the woods. Expensive for sure too."

I know this is running a bit behind, but, you could buy in Frisco or Dillon, CO and live on one great sailing lake. Dillon Reservoir is regularly used for major regattas. And you would be 10 minutes of free bus service from Breckinridge (which would be good for you when the lake is frozen solid 1-2 feet thick). Great sailing, great skiing and much more.

However, being a cruising type sailor, the fact that you can't overnight on Dillon has meant that I've only visited once. But, if you want it all, that's a possibility.

Keith Hamburger
Colorado Springs

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