Association Forum - stern light too low???

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

stern light too low???

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

stewendkos
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
109 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/08/2005 : 23:45:28

The other night we were sailing in some pretty heavy traffic,and I happened to notice that the 250 stern light gets hidden by the outboard to the point that it's almost undetectable by other boats.I told my wife that it probably should be on the stern rail so it can be seen 180 degrees.Has anybody done anything to change that situation.It sits too low now.
Steve
"My Doll"
692
D.Point. CA.

Steve Wendkos
My Doll #692 Gone!

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2005 : 11:13:06

A stern light is a 135 degree light so should be seen only at 22 degrees or less than abeam rather than the 180 you suggest. However, your point is well made about the outboard in a raised position blocking it from vessels off the port quarter.

Some amount of confusion exist about lighting and I'm not an expert and will gladly accept challenge to my offering.

A simple solution might be a flashlight mounted some how to the push pit rail in lieu of the stern light or simply show the flash light in addition to leaving the stern light on when traffic exist off the suspected blocked port quarter. A perminent fix of course could be a masthead tri color fixture for sailing.

Faced with heavy traffic, I think I'd simply drop the motor and motor sail through the traffic switching off the stern light and turning on the anchor light. Doing so would both preclude the blind spot you mention as well as giving full maneuvering in the traffic area.

Edited by - on

stewendkos
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2005 : 13:44:56

Arlyn,
Thanks alot for your input,it's appreciated.
I see that Westmarine has some battery operated easily attachable lights for dingies that might be the answer too.By the way, your soft link has been a 100% improvement for our boat.We did the hard-line and it worked perfect; however I then changed it to a nylon strap (SAIL TIE)with plastic snaps ,and have the line for a spare.She spins on a dime.
Steve

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2005 : 16:07:19

Arlyn,

I beleive that, unless you have a masthead tri-color, it is illegal to motor or motor sail with the anchor light. The required light is the steaming light, the light half way up the mast usually comibined with a deck light. The steaming light is a 180 degree light which provides the 360 degree view in concert with the stern light. As I understand the Internatinal and Inland rules, the only lights a C25 sailboat shows are:

- under sail only: Red & green bow lights, white stern light.
- motor only: Red & green bow lights, white stern light, and steaming light.
- motor & sail: same as motor only.
- at anchor: masthead anchor light. The anchor light need not be shown in a designated anchorage (shown with an anchor on your chart). During day light hours an anchoring ball, flown between the masthead and bow, must be shown in non designated anhorages.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2005 : 22:03:33

Hey Al... I think there are two options for boats powering under 12 meters. The 1st is as you outline and the second it to display sidelights with an all around white light at least one meter above the sidelights with no more than a six degree blockage.

I once thought as you based on what I've heard on sailing sites that use of the anchor light is not legal... but recent reading suggest otherwise... I'll quote from Chapman Piloting..."According to Navigation Rules, a power-driven vessel underway less than 12 meters (39.4 ft)in length may exhibit either (1) a masthead light, sidelights and a stern light or (2) an all-around white light and sidelights.

The following web site suggest the same [url="http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/boating/4_2_b.htm"]nav lights[/url]

Sailboats under power use power boat rules. Am I missing something?

Also, your post suggest the use of a tri-color which I don't see as legal for under power use. A minor correction, the steaming light is a 225 degree light rather than 180 as you noted.

I've traditionally motored with steaming light, red and green side markers, and stern light. Steve raises a good point however about the requirement that lights be visible... the six degree rule may apply to a stern light as it does for an all around light.

A few other points... if using option two, (sides lights and an all around light), the stern light needs turned off and if I recall correctly, the stern light is wired to the same switch as the sidelights so unless it were wired to a seperate switch or a cover were put over the light, option two doesn't exist on the 250.

The all around light would not be legal for a boat over 12 meters so this may be why the sailing community doesn't across the board recognize option two...as it isn't an option on a 40 footer or more.

Also, the all around light must be shielded from the helmsperson but I'd think the anchor light would qualify here.

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

Members Avatar

880 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2005 : 23:54:06

I also have been concerned with the visiblity of the stern light. I might remount a second stern light to the pulpit seat and pull the bulb from the factory intalled light.
Rules of the Road - part C - Rule 25 governs lights and day shapes for sailing vessels. Sailing vessels require side lights (red port & green starboard) and a stern light (white). Sailboats less than 20 meters (65.6 ft) in length may use the tricolored light that combines the stern light and side lights in one lantern at or near the top of the mast. The optional sailing light is Red over Green both of 360 degrees of arch at or near the top of the mast and a stern light. But the tricolor and the optional red over green cannot be used together. Smaller boats less than 20m can combine the red and green Sidelights in one lantern on the fore-aft centerline. An anchor light is not a masthead light. When the Rules of the Road use Masthead Light they are refering to a power boats white masthead light of 225 degrees of arch (so that 22.5 degrees is abaft the beam on each side) which must be mounted on the fore-aft centerline. Power vessels 50 meters in length or more require two of these, the aft most higher than the fore. Smaller powerboats of 12m or less can combine the Masthead and Stern lights into one all around light. Mast in this case is not refering to the standing rigging of a sailboat. This makes them clearly different than a sailboat at night which has a white Stern light of 135 degrees but NO white Masthead light facing forward. The white Steaming light is used when under sail and under power. If a sailboat has sails set and running under power also it is a power boat under the Rules. Thus the steaming light is in effect a Masthead light. If it is day time the sailboat shall exibit forward a cone shape apex down in the rigging. But vessels less than 12 meters are not required to. (12m = 39.4ft) A flashlight is not legal except for sailing vessels 7m (23ft) or less and vessels under oars.

All of the lights on vessels are set up to determine who is the stand-on vessel and who is the give-way vessel so that collisions can be avoided. There are lights for towing, pushing, fishing, not under command, hovercraft, submarine, restricted in manuverablility, diving, mine sweeping (KEEP AWAY) and so on and so forth.

Edited by - Ben - FL on 10/14/2005 00:18:28

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2005 : 02:43:40

Ben, yes an anchor light is not a masthead light, but as an all around white light it appears to me that it fits option two for boats under 12 meters. Option two requires red/green bow (side markers) and all around white at least one meter above side markers with no more than a six degree blockage.

So far, I've not seen any verbage that would exclude the use of an anchor light as the all around light.

There are problems however... but they don't seem to be rule issues but rather practical concerns with the 250. As mentioned previously, using it would require shutting off or covering the stern light and it still leaves the visibility issue for the stern light which is needed when sailing.

Your suggestion to add another light on stern pushpit rail and remove the bulb from stock light seems quite reasonable. Adding a tri-color at the masthead for sailing and using the anchor light when motoring and doing away with need for a stern light seems doable but would require some effort to power the tri-color light.

That could be done fairly easy however by wire sharing with the anchor light, eliminating any major mast wiring issue using a scheme similar to that in the drawing. It basically would require adding a switch for the tri-color at or near the switch panel, the tri-color fixture and two diodes as I think the current fixtures on the 250 do not have the negative bonded to the mast.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 10/14/2005 05:02:07

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2005 : 07:42:30

Power Driven Vessels

Power driven vessels of less than 20 meters shall exhibit navigation lights as shown in Figure 1.
(Note: 2 masthead lights are optional for vessels under 50 meters. Vessels over 50 meters will display two masthead lights.)

Figure 1

Figure 2

Vessels of less than 12 meters in length, may show the lights in either Figure 1 or Figure 2.

Power driven vessels of less than 7 meters whose maximum speed cannot exceed 7 knots may exhibit an all-around white light, and if practicable sidelights instead of the lights prescribed above, in international waters only.

Sailing Vessels and Vessels Under Oars

Sailing vessels less than 20 meters may exhibit the navigation lights shown in Figures 3 or 4.

Figure 3

Figure 4

Another option for sailboats is to use a single combination lantern at the top of the mast as shown in Figure 5.

Figure 5

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2005 : 09:22:14

Don,

I am assuming from your photos that the "steaming light"/masthead light on the boat under sail, is the same 220 degree light that is midway up the mast on my C25 and is housed with the deck light. I am also assuming that the light at the head of my mast is an anchor light. I don't think I've been dreaming this for the past 16 years....., or have I. As I understand the rules I can only display the steaming light while under power (motor) and the anchor light when at anchor in a non-designated anchorage.

To further the discussion regarding visibility, I do not believe the masthead light is low enough to be seen by the average boater as an anchor light let alone a steaming light. My experience tells me, and my boat has already been run into at night, that boaters are too intent on what's directly ahead to be aware of an anchor light 35 feet over the water. Up until I was hit, nobody found it necessary to even bother with an anchor light. With the proliferation of walleye fisherman and popularity of night boating, we have found it necessary to diplay a light, but not the traditional anchor light. Those of us who moor in our area, use the Davis mini light suspended from the standing rigging. This light can be seen the requisit 2 miles and is low enough to be practicaly at eye level except when next to the boat. I have been tempted to add another of these very low amperage lights to fill a small blind spot but have not done so yet. Despite the ever increasing boat traffic around my moored boat, I have not been hit again in the past five years, nor has anyone else using these lights.

Perhaps the ability to descern a masthead light is a function of routine awareness - coastal sailors are more aware of them because of the greater number of "ships" using them versus a rural,less populated area such as the Upper Great Lakes. It is my opinion though that there is an increasing boater population that is not educated in even the rudiments of seamanship and therefore create risk for us all. Discussions such as these certainly helps to reinforce previous learning and clear up misconceptions. I think we may all be better boater/sailors as a result.

Edited by - on

JohnMD
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2005 : 09:40:03

West Marine has a good article in their paper catalog and online listing the various USCG requirements. Search for 'navigation light rules'.

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.