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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

loose foot or not ?

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weluvlife
Navigator

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166 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/08/2005 : 08:24:26

Hi,

Specific to our boat design, would a loose footed or
traditional rope/boom slotted style main perform better
all around? A friend of mine is considering replacing
his main with a new Pineapple. He's considering the
two full batten setup, with the shelf foot. The both
of us sail in winds averaging 2 to 10, occasionally a little more.

Does the shelf design work better with one or the other?

Does one perform better upwind vs down?

Thanks,

Mark Eichman
Lake Don Pedro,CA
www.lakedonpedrosailingclub.org
'86 c25 TR, SK

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 08:54:20

IMHO
The advent of the loose foot and full batten main has made all other configurations niche solutions. In light air the full batten main can hold a foil shape when no other main can. (Everyone to leeward and blow past the wallowers! The full batten main doesn't need the leeward tilt anymore but the headsail still will.) The ability to pre-shape the sail with batten tension is amazing. The full battens do restrict the Cunningham's ability to pull the pocket out of the sail and turns it into more of a luff tension downhaul; but that is a very heavy air event. A powerhead sail with all the sail shaping adjustments is wonderful if you have heavy air and crew that tweaks incessantly. I sail in heavy air and do not miss those adjustments. The powerhead is also to support an oversized roach, you will hate manhandling the head past the backstay in light air and you will feel the batten pockets wear on every maneuver.
The shelf foot was a design based on a bolt rope foot. It provides a deep draft down low, that very same deep draft it now automatically there with a loose foot. The loose foot dispenses with all the turbulation associated with the shelf foot, (that air has to get out of that pocket somehow). A full batten main has no need for a flattening reef, the outhaul gets it done.
As for down wind performance, dead down the shelf foot might have a slim advantage but our boats hate dead down. With a 150 the overlap means that on any point other than dead down your main is drawing, (ever notice how far in you need to pull that main to get the main leach tell tails to stream? The slot makes for apparent wind from the front for the main and so the main is going up wind). This is not the case in heavy wind with a non-overlapping headsail.
I would call Catalina Direct and get the "off the shelf" full batten main and never look back. He wait a minute, I did do that! (Note the sailshape in 0 air.)

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 11/08/2005 08:56:05

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 09:35:42

People who have used loose footed mainsails swear by them, and I don't doubt that they are an improvement over the traditional footed mainsail, but there are two types of footed mainsails. I used a mainsail with a racing shelf foot for many years. It's like any ordinary footed mainsail, but the shelf foot is exceptionally deep. When the outhaul is eased, it creates a very deep pocket in the lower part of the sail, and it maximizes the sail's power in light air and downwind. As the wind increases, or when you beat to windward, you increase the tension on the outhaul, and it flattens the sail. Regardless of whether you use a loose footed mainsail or a racing shelf footed mainsail, you should have a good, functional system for adjusting outhaul tension, and then get in the habit of tensioning it when beating to windward and in the puffs, and easing it when off the wind and in the lulls.

I don't consider the mainsail with a racing shelf foot to be just a racing sail. I didn't find any drawbacks to it, and used it for all purposes.

When a sailmaker talks about a shelf footed mainsail, he's usually talking about a mainsail with the deep, racing shelf foot, and not an ordinary footed mainsail. I think your friend is considering the racing shelf foot, and believe he would enjoy the sail.

I have heard some talk that the loose footed mainsail has made the mainsail with the racing shelf foot obsolete, but, last summer I talked with a Quantum sailmaker from the Chesapeake, and he said the shelf foot is still preferred by people who value boat performance.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 13:41:56

Mark, A couple of years back I had a new full battened main shipped here and after using it rope in boom thought I'd have a shelf foot put in and after calling the sailmaker and being told it would cost $75 and take X2 of weeks to do the work, inspiration struck in the form of a light bulb

and the idea to slip the rope out of the boom and sail loose. It was the better idea of the season for me. I've been using it that way ever since.

I also noticed in the America's cup since that ALL contenders sailed loose footed. Mind you I didn't say anything to them they figured it out all by themselves

Val on the hard DAGNABIT # 3936

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 16:57:26

I'm sailing my North two full top battens, full roach, and deep shelf foot. I've slipped the bolt rope out of the boom and am sailing loose footed.

Loose footed makes the outhaul very easy to adjust. The outhaul is your friend and its easy to power up (full draft) or flatten (for pointing).

Loose footed on this racing sail and I think I lose some of the advatages of the deep shelf pocket. When the outhaul is loose the boltrope hangs below the boom and so its harder to work that extra draft up into the lower part of the sail.

I'll probably work the boltrope back into the boom (plus some sail lube) but the loose foot makes the outhaul quick and easy to play with.

Outhaul, traveller, backstay tension, vang, flattening reef, full reef. Very important controls. I use the outhaul the most.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 16:59:58

Oh yeah, Gary Swensen of Ulman Ventura quoted under $800 for standard rig, full baten, loose footed, outhaul, cunningham, flattening reef, 1st and 2nd reef, draft stripes, catalina insignia, and sail numbers.

Why go anywhere else?

I'd have one now if I had 800 bones laying around. I have 3 other mains, want to buy one?

Edited by - on

weluvlife
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 21:21:45

Wow! Great response! I really enjoyed reading your thoughts and opinions.

Definately some things to consider.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 23:47:16

I have an Ullman ful-batten loose foot main and it performs wonderfully in any conditions I'm likely to be out in, from light air to small craft advisory. The fact that the loose foot allows me to grab hold of the boom as I walk along the cabin top is a nice bonus, too. For venues where light air is common, full-batten is definately the way to go.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2005 : 21:33:36

I'd like to join the loose footed main chorus as well. I picked a fully battened Ullman from Catalina Direct used it for the last two seasons, and really love it.

I'm pretty familiar with the Catalina 25 after sailing mine for 23 seasons coastal and near offshore and believe that the loose foot is the way to go for.

(My thumbnail shows my old shelf footed main, it's an old picture

)

Edited by - oldsalt on 11/11/2005 21:37:58

weluvlife
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2005 : 00:20:44

With the loose footed main, I'm imagining the aft end of the boom lowering a bit as the outhaul is eased? Is this the case?

Also, do you find that in light air the full battened main has to be "popped" after a tack?

Is the "powerhead" or main with just two full battens up top a good compromise?

Can a loose footed main have a "shelf" built into it? Is this necessary or useful on this type of sail?

I know..I'm just full of questions!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2005 : 01:01:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by weluvlife
 With the loose footed main, I'm imagining the aft end of the boom lowering a bit as the outhaul is eased? Is this the case?
imperceptibly

Also, do you find that in light air the full battened main has to be "popped" after a tack?
occasionally

Is the "powerhead" or main with just two full battens up top a good compromise?
I think it is the only alternative

Can a loose footed main have a "shelf" built into it?
It does, that is the point of it

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2005 : 14:31:05

About a week ago I submitted the following question to North Sails, and just received the following answer:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Question: I raced with a North mainsail with a deep racing shelf foot and flattening reef for many years and loved it. Now I have a different boat (C&C 35) and am considering a new mainsail. Some sailors and sailmakers are telling me that the loose footed mainsail has made the mainsail with a deep racing shelf foot obsolete, and others are telling me that racers are still using shelf footed mains. I'm having difficulty believing that the loose footed main is superior to the deep shelf footed main, because mine was very fast, but I have confidence in North Sails, and if you say the loose footed main is the way to go, I'll be convinced. What does North say?

Thanks,
Steve Milby

Answer: Steve -

We need to separate several features here. One is "Loose Foot" vs "Attached foot" The other is "Shelf Foot vs Straight Foot."

"Loose" and "attached" simply refer to whether the foot of the main is attached to the boom (with slides or bolt rope) or not. "Shelf" and "Straight" indicate if there is sail extending below the straight line between the tack and clew.

These two features are independent of one another. You can have any combination of the two, (loose/shelf, loose/straight, attached/shelf, attached/straight). Most sailors now choose loose foot mains for lighter weight, easier installation, no foot slides to make noise or break etc.

The choice between shelf and straight is simple; race mains should have a shelf to provide extra area when the outhaul is eased and an endplate to the sail upwind.

Good luck,
Steve Reed<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

According to North, a shelf foot is an option that you can have built into either a loose-footed or an attached-footed mainsail, but you have to specify that you want the shelf foot when you order the sail.

North says the benefits that the loose-footed main has over the attached-footed main are "...lighter weight, easier installation, no foot slides to make noise or break etc." Those don't seem to me to be very significant benefits. I only install my mainsail once a season, have never been annoyed by noisy foot slides, and don't believe the weight differential would significantly affect a C25. North doesn't claim that the loose-footed main is a faster sail, or that the wind moves over it more efficiently. If they had any test data that said otherwise, they would probably have said so.

If I were buying a new mainsail today, I would buy a loose-footed main with a shelf foot, not because I think it's any faster than my old attached-footed main with shelf foot, but simply because I think the trend is with loose-footed mains now, and that's the direction that future mainsail research and development will take. The design of attached-footed mains will stagnate, because nobody is thinking about it anymore. Likewise, if you have an attached-footed mainsail with a shelf foot, I don't think you have to replace it with a loose-footed main in order to stay competitive.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/16/2005 14:39:34

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