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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Bedding Material for Cam Cleats

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Ed Harris
1st Mate

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25 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/08/2005 : 11:46:54

Hi all,
Heading down to install a set of Cam Cleats for my Ginny sheets this weekend and wanted to know what you recommend for bedding/sealer.

Thanks,
Ed

1985 Catalina 25
"Fourteenth Street"

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 13:44:01

3m 5200
Lifecaulk

Edited by - on

Ed Harris
1st Mate

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25 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 15:22:34

Thanks!

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 17:36:36

Ed<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...install a set of Cam Cleats ... and wanted to know what you recommend for bedding/sealer.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
NOT 3M 5200!! (sorry C.S. McKillip) 5200 is far too permanent for something that's going to have to be replaced in a few years.

Having said that, I feel obligated to mention that the WEST epoxy folks say to bed deck hardware with epoxy!? As for getting it back apart, they recommend a lot of heat (i.e. propane torch or huge soldering iron).

Over the years I've been messing about with boats, I've found myself disassembling so many things that the previous person apparently didn't think would ever have to come back apart (at least not by him), that I've become very circumspect about using stronger than necessary adhesives. Don't get me wrong, I buy my epoxy by the gallon and keep a tube or two of 5200 in my toolbox. But I've learned to picture myself having to separate everything I plan to stick together before choosing an adhesive. There are so many different adhesives, sealants, and bedding compounds available now, that there's no need to over bond something for lack of the a reasonable strength glue.

For most deck hardware I'd suggest polysulfide sealant in combination with secure mechanical fasteners (thru-bolts that fit the holes snugly, and backing plates). For exterior wood, I prefer silicon sealant for it's flexibility and ease of removal.

-- Leon Sisson

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SailFisher
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 00:09:02

5200 is the best product, been using it for years and have always planned ahead, thought a lot about the project and have never had to remove or move something. Plan ahead. Cam cleats don't need replacing, I just replaced the bearings and spring and they are still in the original location. I would rather struggle a little than to use a easier product that obviously doesn't offer the same protection from water getting inside. Silicon is good for a year or two but that will need replacing. Thru bolt everything, with a backing plate if possible and screws are for rookies. This is just one Captain's opinion.

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Ed Harris
1st Mate

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25 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 10:04:17

Thanks for the time gang!

FYI, I'm through bolting the cleats in place with backing plate. My thoughts after reading your responses is:
Do I really need any adhesive at all? What I'm really looking for is a bedding material to keep water out...nothing more, right?

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 12:46:14

I think 3M's 4000UV offers the best of both worlds.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 13:21:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Harris
 Do I really need any adhesive at all? What I'm really looking for is a bedding material to keep water out...nothing more, right?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, you do not need, or want to use, an adhesive like 5200 for bedding deck hardware. All you should use is a polysulfide or hybrid sealant.

Here is an excerpt from an article titled [url="http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=caseyd0051"]Choosing and Using Sealants by noted boat repair expert Don Casey.[/url] It should answer all your questions.

Polysulfides You can—and should—use polysulfide to bed almost everything. A synthetic rubber with excellent adhesive characteristics, polysulfide is the most versatile of marine sealants. As a bedding compound it allows for the movements associated with stress and temperature change, yet maintains the integrity of the seal by gripping tenaciously to both surfaces. It even adheres to oily teak and is unaffected by harsh teak cleaners, making it the choice for bedding teak rails and trim. It is also an excellent caulking compound since it can be sanded after it cures and it takes paint well. (The black caulking between the planks of a teak deck is invariably polysulfide.)

One caution: do not use polysulfide to bed plastic—as in deadlights, portlight frames, or deck fittings. The solvents in polysulfide will cause acrylic, polycarbonate, ABS, and PVC to harden and split. Only when you know for certain that a plastic fitting is made of epoxy, nylon, or Delrin can you safely bed it with polysulfide. Below-the-waterline through-hull fittings fall into this group, but if you have any doubt, use another sealant.

Polyurethane Consider polyurethane an adhesive rather than a sealant. Fittings bedded with polyurethane typically cannot be separated without damage, so do not use it on anything you might need to dismantle in the future. Polyurethane is an excellent sealant for hull-to-deck and hull-to-keel joints and a good choice for through-hull fittings, rubrails, and toerails. Do not, however, bed teak rails with polyurethane because teak cleaners damage it. Like polysulfide, polyurethane should not be used on acrylic, polycarbonate, PVC, or ABS-based fittings.

Silicone If you think of silicone as a gasket material instead of a sealant you can proably intuit its appropriate uses. It is the best choice for bedding components that must be periodically dismantled. Its excellent insulating properties make it ideal for bedding dissimilar metals—stainless hardware on an aluminum spar, for example. And it is—by default—the only one of the marine sealant trio than can be safely used to bed plastic. However, silicone should not be used below the waterline. And because it depends upon mechanical compression to maintain its seal, silicone is also a poor choice for sealing hardware on a cored deck.

Keep this quick review in mind when you’re considering a bedding compound:

Polysulfide—a sealant suitable for bedding everything except plastic.
Polyurethane—an adhesive that forms a permanent bond.
Silicone—a gasket material and electrical insulator.

I hope this helps.

Edited by - on

Mike Mullen
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 15:17:30

Use 3M 4200 for bedding objects which you may wish to disassemble in the future. 3M 5200 is for permanent assembly.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 16:15:02

Don - how about some brand names to go along with this?
"Polysulfide—a sealant suitable for bedding everything except plastic.
Polyurethane—an adhesive that forms a permanent bond.
Silicone—a gasket material and electrical insulator."
Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 17:42:41

I cannot imagine a project I would be involved in that would justify 5200.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 20:18:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Don - how about some brand names to go along with this?
"Polysulfide—a sealant suitable for bedding everything except plastic.
Polyurethane—an adhesive that forms a permanent bond.
Silicone—a gasket material and electrical insulator."
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Polysulfide - BoatLife LifeCaulk, 3M Marine Sealant 101

Polyurethane - 3M Marine Adhesive Sealant 4200 and 5200

Polyurethane/Silicone Hybrid - BoatLife LifeSeal

Silicone - 3M Marine Grade Silicone Sealant, BoatLife Silicone Rubber

Edited by - dlucier on 11/09/2005 20:36:24

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 22:16:14

Thanks Don. I'm sure that will help a lot of folks (including me!)

Derek

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2005 : 23:19:20

Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You're welcome Derek.

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Ed Harris
1st Mate

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25 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2005 : 09:20:36

Thanks gang! Lot's of good info here!

FYI, the risers I'm using with the cleats are Harken and appear to be some kind of plastic....hmmmmmm.....

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