Association Forum - What is the performance differnece between the ...

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

What is the performance differnece between the ...

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

djn
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
1561 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/15/2005 : 11:15:38

Hi All, what is the performance difference between the standard rig and the tall rig. I still have not measured mine and Catalina said they can not find a record of my boat. Will a tall rig go faster? Cheers.

Dennis
No Boat
S.E. Michigan

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 11:40:35

The larger sail area of the tall rig makes it considerably faster than the standard rig in light air, but, as the windspeed increases, the tall rig's extra weight aloft begins to work against it, and the standard rig becomes faster. The tall rig has to start to reduce sail area sooner.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 11:46:37

Thanks Steve. Here on the great lakes in mid summer, it seems that all we get is light air so that is a plus for the TR. I guess it is all a toss up. Cheers.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 13:36:55

Standard Rig PHRF 228
Tall Rig PHRF 222

The TR flying a 110 and the SR flying a 135 are essentially equal. Gary and I can sail side by side for hours like this.

My fin points significantly better than his wing. The TR wing seems to have a edge downwind (unless that's due to Gary's skill).

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 14:13:20

Hi Jim, excuse the ignance, but what does pointing upwind or downwind refer too? Cheers.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 16:06:58

Sailing is so old of a technology and so wide spread that there are many terms that are used which are essentially the same and yet nuanced. Pointing is essentially a racing term because it tends to address the last few possible degrees of windward capability of a boat and how it is trimmed. On the wind, beating, up-wind, close hauled, and any number of other terms all speak to the same point of sail; going into the wind. Pointing is generally used by people who have a vessel which has had windward ability as a primary design criteria and sail selection likewise.
“How well do you point?”, “Not quite as high as that J-24 but higher than that Cape Dory!”, “Yeah if I could just get my genoa cars in the right place and a little more halyard tension I just know I could get another degree or two”, Yeah I know what you mean, I am trying to justify new sails, but my wife just doesn’t see the need for that last two degrees into the wind.”.

edit add

Once you go above a close reach you are close hauled and if the weather is heavy then you will take a “beating”. When you are beating you should chose the shortest course to your destination and to do that you need to point as high into the wind as possible. It really is a great concern for all sailors because cruisers of all people are the least well rigged to get beaten up going “up hill” so they of all people should want to point high and get to a point where they have the option of changing their point of sail as soon as possible. But most cruisers have too many other design criteria that preclude a hull form or sail plan to get it done very well. We all have the same boat, (essentially, just don't try to out point a fin keel with your swinger unless it has been faired and is in really good shape and even then you may want to hang a lobster pot or two off the fin) and so our choices to optimize windward performance are pretty specific. I am getting a new 135 for Christmas. It will be cut flatter than most 135s so it will point higher and can be carried in heavier air. A flat sail has less power so I will carry the full LP longer to make up for that and hopefully make a better VMG than those who have dropped to their 110. VMG is Velocity Made Good which translates into the vector of your point of sail factored with your speed over the water to find the optimum point of sail. Pointing is slower than just Beating but if the path is shortened enough then you get there sooner, and conversely if you do not shorten the path enough then the guy who sailed a lower faster course has the better VMG and arrives before you. The Catalina 25 is generally considered an adequate pointer but most would sail a slightly lower course than a racing onedesign would and hope to make it up on speed.
VMG applies to all points of sail and is a big issue for us when going down hill, off the wind, running, etc. If we go dead down then it is up to our hull form to have minimal wetted surface and our rig to have maximum profile to develop speed. We have no aerodynamic forces at work. So conventional wisdom holds that a Catalina 25 is better off sailing a little above dead down wind to get a little more boat speed from aerodynamic forces; This is where the Tall Rig could break with convention as it has a better sail area to wetted surface ratio.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 12/15/2005 16:52:31

djn
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 17:10:04

Hi Frank, I think I understand now. So, to point higher is to take a tac that has less degrees to the wing direction and to point lower widens that angle between the direction of the boat and the direction of the wind? So if you can point higher to the wind, it is like taking a crooked line and straightening it out, so the distance traveled is less? Do I have that right?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 17:44:53

yep
And Jim please add to this, I would not have stolen you thunder but I am sitting at Parent teacher conferences and bored, also trying to stop eating this bag of home made peanut brittle.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 12/15/2005 17:46:57

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 17:57:00

"just don't try to out point a fin keel with your swinger unless it has been faired and is in really good shape"
Frank, with all due respect, the fin will point as high as a swinger but develops more leeway going to weather (and tacks slower

). This means that the swinger is faster getting to the weather mark but the fin makes it up going off the wind. That's why the PHRF of both is the same.
Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 18:18:23

Dennis, if Derek says it believe it:
I am a poorer helmsman that I would like to admit, my experience with my swinger against the two fins I raced against was that they beat me to weather and I gained off the wind but never caught them. I never noticed them have a problem coming across the wind, their crews seemed to handle it well, but I only sailed the swinger hard for a few months. It is quite possible that I was not turning it as fast as it could go, I tended to be very smooth in my tacks, as a single handing racer there is a greater need for synchronization of events to preclude confusion of events.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 20:33:33

"Dennis, if Derek says it believe it:"

Derek

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2005 : 22:58:07

after one year of sailing this beautiful C25, one year of reading what you guys have to say about the technicalities of sailing - I want to thank you again for your attention to detail - my newfound confidence is attributable to what I read here!

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.