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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/07/2002 : 13:44:49

I am about to begin to commence to start on repainting the deck & cockpit on "This Side Up"...<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Does anyone know of a product that will remove the oxidation from the existing paint? Or, what's the best way to prep the surfaces?
(When we painted topsides we used wet/dry sandpaper and a power sander - and I really don't want to go thru' that again!)I plan on using one-part Interlux - any comments on that subject.
Derek

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2002 : 14:41:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I am about to begin to commence to start on repainting the deck & cockpit on "This Side Up"...<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Does anyone know of a product that will remove the oxidation from the existing paint? Or, what's the best way to prep the surfaces?
(When we painted topsides we used wet/dry sandpaper and a power sander - and I really don't want to go thru' that again!)I plan on using one-part Interlux - any comments on that subject.
Derek<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Only one comment.......Avoid if at all possible...It just isn't fun.

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

MarkTM
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2002 : 15:40:20

Derek,

In case you haven't already looked at the current issue of Cruising World, prep'ing and painting are well covered. It may be worth a look.

Mark Melchior
C250wb "Lorelei" #384
[url="http://www.texassailor.com/"]<img src="http://www.texassailor.com/texas.gif " border=0>[/url]
(click flag to visit Central Texas Sailor)

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2002 : 16:23:58

Derek, I know you said you are "repainting." Just a clarification; do you mean you are painting over the original factory gelcoat or recoating paint that was already applied over the gelcoat?

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ (Ode to Joy)

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2002 : 18:05:51

Steve - as far as I know i'm painting over the original (21 yr old) factory paint. There are several areas where it's so worn the blue gelcoat is showing thru'. The hull and topsides are beautiful, but the deck and cockpit are yuck!
Derek

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2002 : 19:13:12

Derek,
The reason I ask is that I have some doubts that you will happy with "paint" in the long run as opposed to "gelcoat." The latter is much more durable = resistant to scuffs and light scatches. Others will disagree with me I'm sure, but I would at least investigate having the deck sprayed with "gelcoat" as opposed to applying "paint." I think after 2 or 3 seasons of use you're going to see every ding, scratch and scuff that you wouldn't see with gelcoat.
Just my opinion . . . <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Dave Seely
1st Mate

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46 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2002 : 21:25:46

I used a green Scotch Bright abrasive pad to remove the oxidized gelcoat on my boat but I was preping it for compound and wax rather than paint. It gets down into the nonskid much better than sand paper, easier on the hands and lasts longer but it might not be course enough for paint prep? I know everyone is going to jump on me for waxing non-skid but the shine sure looks better than the chalky white surface.

Edited by - on

MarkTM
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2002 : 10:42:31

I'm interested in this topic because I might be in the market for an older, larger boat. But, I'm confused about a few comments that have been made.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>as far as I know i'm painting over the original (21 yr old) factory paint. There are several areas where it's so worn the blue gelcoat is showing thru'. The hull and topsides are beautiful, but the deck and cockpit are yuck!
Derek <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Why would the factory paint over new gelcoat . . . especially blue gelcoat when they would have had to go to extra lengths to color it blue?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I would at least investigate having the deck sprayed with "gelcoat" as opposed to applying "paint."<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I've heard of new gelcoat jobs but I've also heard they were VERY EXPENSIVE. Also, I've never heard of a gelcoat job on anything but the hull. Doesn't new gelcoat have curing problems when exposed to air. I've read where people place SURAN wrap over gelcoat patches so that they cure properly. Normally gelcoat is sprayed into a hull or deck mold.

Mark Melchior
C250wb "Lorelei" #384
[url="http://www.texassailor.com/"]<img src="http://www.texassailor.com/texas.gif " border=0>[/url]
(click flag to visit Central Texas Sailor)

Edited by - marktm on 05/08/2002 10:44:15

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Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2002 : 12:33:23

Mark's comment about reading the Cruising World article is a good one. Very informative. I have just finished painting a small 14' Banchee sailboat. I used West Marines one part polyurethan (sp?)SeaGloss. It is very easy to use, but there are some important things to do to get the surface smooth and shiny. The pro's with all the neat equipment seem to prefer the two part polyurethan which has a tougher finish. The one part stuff I used seems pretty darned tough also.

I get the feeling that you want to paint the none skid on the decks and the cockpit floor. This is a different product then the topsides paint for the hull. Check page 399 in West Marine's 2002 catalog, lower right corner for a product called Interdeck. This looks like a good resurfacing for those with worn out non-skid.

Ed Montague on 'Yahoo'
1978 #765 SK, Stnd, Dinette ~_/)~

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2002 : 13:23:54

Mark,
Good points and it may well be that I'm talking over my head. My experience with gelcoat is as follows; I had former Catalina employee re-enforce my transom (to accomodate a four-stroke.) He ground off the gelcoat and applied fiberglass to straighten out the exterior surface. He then applied the new gelcoat with an aerosol spray device called "Preval." After the gelcoat cured he sanded it with 800 plus grit and then polished it with a polishing compound. He used the same product (different color) for a couple of nicks on the deck.
When he cleaned the area in preparation for the gelcoat, he wiped some cleaner on the old gelcoat the around repair. He pointed out symptoms of the old gelcoat that was indicative of its aging and how he would redo the hull and deck with gelcoat - only using a professional sprayer.
This guy is a craftsman in the truest sense of the word. I wish the rest of the hull looked as good as the transom! He does most, if not all of the warranty work for Catalina on the east coast. Maybe next time I do the "yachta, yachta" will him, I'll get the fat and skinny on this topic. Or, maybe someone like Jerry Douglas would give us an abbreviated dissertation.

Edited by - OJ on 05/08/2002 13:26:34

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2002 : 18:22:29

Well, now that y'all have me completely confused, can we please go back to square 1....?
I want to paint the cockpit and the deck, including the non-skid. Parts of the cockpit - especially the sides, have oxidation rather than a nice shiny finish. Now in my ignorance about boat building, I assumed that the white (and grey on the non-skid) surfaces were painted, because in several areas the paint (if that is what it is) has worn away leaving a translucent looking blue area. Am I correct? (When we wet/dri sanded the hull - or more correctly, the topsides, waterline to gunwale, - a lot of white chalky stuff came off and we finished with a clean hard surface which polished beautifully. We did not need to paint this.)
Now, what is the easiest way to remove the oxidation from the cockpit areas - I know I cannot paint directly over this surface.
Ed - I checked on the Interdeck and it only comes in clear and cream. I told the knowlegeable guy at WM what I was doing & he recommended Interlux Brightside (one-part). Will this work?
Gentlemen - you can probably gather that I'm a much better racer than a handyman <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2002 : 18:31:17

I'm sure the factory didn't paint it, but maybe a previous owner did. The blue boot stripe on my boat ('82) is a gelcoat stripe that was sprayed into the mold and then white gelcoat applied over the rest of the hull, but blue gelcoat on the deck under the white? I dunno.

Don Casey has some good info about painting over fiberglass at this link -
http://www.boatus.com/howto/ask_archv.asp?CID=16

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Rick Heaverly 86 C25 5382
Navigator

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Belize
206 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2002 : 09:57:31

Derek,

There is an article in the March/April 2002 issue of Good Old Boat magazine on "Deck Makeover" by Don Glover. If you can't find it email me and I'll fax it to you. I guess there was also an article in the January 2002 issue on painting the top sides.

Rick Heaverly

Edited by - Rick Heaverly 86 C25 5382 TR-FK on 05/09/2002 09:58:10

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2002 : 10:45:38

John, I'm pretty sure the blue that is coming thru on the deck is actually fiberglass. When I sanded down an area in the cockpit of my C-22 in prep for re-gelcoating, it looked blue until I got down to the mat.
Hey Derek, see what ya started <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> ! Good thread!

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2002 : 18:06:26

OJ - does that mean that I CAN paintit??<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2002 : 18:44:31

Derek,
I'm quite sure you realize that I'm only trying to save you the heart ache I think you're going to experience down the road with paint. I also don't mean to come off like a know-it-all.
To repeat again what my father used say; it's better to be shocked once than shocked twice.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2002 : 12:07:11

OJ - I DO appreciate yr concern. Unfortunately, the cockpit has seen 10 yrs of hard racing - "driven hard & put away wet!!" and it looks horrible! Something has to be done to make it presentable again - and it it's not paint, I don't know anything else. (And I do know what a chore it is).
Derek

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2002 : 15:38:53

Yeah, you can paint it. It's not fun and it's a last resort (after polishing and waxing no longer work to bring back the shine - sounds like you're there).

Comments from Don Casey about painting over fiberglass
You can get an absolutely stunning finish from two-part polyurethane applied with a roller and tipped out with a dry brush. The cost is a fraction of what a professional spray application goes for.
You can find detailed instructions for applying this amazing paint in Sailboat Refinishing(book). Paint a dinghy or a dock box first. You will see first-hand what is possible, and your confidence level is certain to rise.
-------
The problem with spraying is that polyurethane has isocyanate--a cyanide relative--as a component. When you spray, you put this extremely toxic substance into the air you are breathing. A particle mask is insufficient protection; you need a forced air respirator to spray polyurethane safely.
For refinishing the uninterrupted expanse of a hull, there is little reason to run this risk. If you paint when it is cool and dry, you can get excellent results applying this paint with a roller and tipping it with a badger-hair brush. The finish should actually have a higher gloss when applied by roller because a more volatile solvent is required for spraying, which reduces the gloss of the paint as the solvent flashes off.
-------
...more durable option is a two-part polyurethane, such as Interthane Plus. You cannot safely spray this paint without a pressure respirator and other safety precautions, but the amazing flow characteristics of this paint gives excellent results with a roller application, tipped with a dry brush. Two part urethane is about twice as expensive, but the gloss stands up to the elements three times as long.
-------
For painting the hull I believe that a two-part polyurethane is the hands-down best choice. Two-part polyurethane is hardly more difficult to apply than any other paint, particularly where the surface is uninterrupted, but it looks better and lasts three times as long as anything else. I typically use Interthane Plus because it is engineered for do-it-yourself application.
I also use the same paint for the deck, but that requires dividing the area into manageable segments. For the deck, a single part paint, such as Brightside or Easypoxy, is somewhat easier to apply, but also has a shorter life.
For complete illustrated instructions on what products to use, how to prepare, and how to paint, I unapologetically urge you to pick up a copy of Sailboat Refinishing, whether you buy it from BoatU.S. or borrow it from your local library. It tells you everything you need to know to get a spectacular finish, no matter what kind of boat you have.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

n/a
deleted

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163 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2002 : 09:04:55

Somewhere I heard about applying new gelcoat and, instead of covering it with plastic wrap, spraying it with polyvinyl alcohol to cure it. Check with a good fberglass repair shop and I'm sure they can tell you.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2002 : 14:35:03

I have painted the topsides and deck of a 23' Tempest with one part paint, rolled and tipped. It looked great, but it just doesn't hold up long to hard use and scrapes against docks, etc. I saw this boat the other day. Current owner was not a good sailor and did 0 maintenance. After 5 years, it desperately needs paint again.

My neighbor at the marina has the most beautiful older Cal 25. He painted the topsides with AUTO paint and clear coat, mostly cuz that's what he did for a living. It GLEEMS, and has held up for many years. His deck looks good, too. Said he used a 1 part interlux product that he brushed on. No brush marks, but I could see where lines had started to wear through it after several years...Anyway... another thought..I am so tempted to paint my '78, but the 2 part scares me. A boatyard said $3K to shoot it if I did all the prep....Wow! That is not an option....

Gary SK/SR #685 Encore!

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2002 : 16:50:35

Gentlemen - thank you all for your advice and comments. The paint job has been postponed 'cos we have to drop the mast and rewire the mast lights from the electrical panel to masthead - sheez! If it ain't one thing it's another!<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2002 : 20:48:29

Coming in late on this topic, but I agree with those who have said that paint is a very poor substitute for gelcoat. It's hard for me to imagine a Catalina 25 so damaged (and so near the end of its useful life) that I'd paint over the gelcoat instead of patching it. I painted my ancient Sunfish, but one or more previous owners did too. (I also noticed that my wooden Lightning ended up with less varnish and more paint with each passing year<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>) Once the switch is made from gelcoat to paint, there's no going back -- you're commited to maintaining paint (periodic repainting) from then on. On the other hand, a less than perfect gelcoat repair (we all have to start somewhere...) can be turned into a much better gelcoat repair later as skills improve. Be very careful when using sand paper to restore badly oxidized gelcoat. It's real easy to take off too much, or to leave deeper, coarser sanding scratches than you meant to. I've done a bunch of gelcoat repair to my 1979 C-25. In most places, you wouldn't be able to see the finished repair unless it was pointed out, and maybe not even then. The first spot I did, a larger area (about 2'x6') on the topsides came out very slightly blotchy because I hadn't yet learned to color match well, and in large batches. Speaking of PVA vs. sheet plastic air exclusion barriers, I tried both, and settled on PVA. It's also possible to spray gelcoat, and it's probably less dangerous than 2-part paint.

At least that's my opinion on the matter. (Is my soapbox showing?<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>)

-- Leon Sisson

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2002 : 21:23:01

"Parts of the cockpit - especially the sides, have oxidation rather than a nice shiny finish." - Derek Crawford

Have you considered an acrylic clearcoat product like Instant Glass Cote from Starbrite or Island Girl?
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201& prrfnbr=3948& outlet=

I personally have not used any acrylic products, but I know someone who has and the results were amazing. The best part was the application couldn't have been easier just wipe on with a sponge and you're done. I've also heard people talk about using Mop & Glo acrylic floor finish with some success, but I don't know if that stuff will hold up when exposed to the weather.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2002 : 22:36:25

Thanks for the lead, Don. I'll check out the product.
Derek

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n/a
deleted

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125 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2002 : 01:11:33

Derek, I am in the chemical industry, and I'm here to answer your question. If you want to remove the oxidation from your jelcoat. Use a water base degreaser with butyl, and scrub that with a fine scotchbrite. That is exactly what Poli-Glo sells you for their prep liquid. It is a butyl base degreaser with a PH of about 10.
Product........I would recommend a CRC product called "Hydroforce"
they have three strengths, "all Purpose" is appropriate for what your doing. I've used it on my Catalina and when even scrubbing with a sponge, you can see the rinse water is "WHITE" from the removed oxidation.

Edited by - on

Dave Seely
1st Mate

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46 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2002 : 08:11:45

If you decide to use gelcoat instead of paint, there is no need to cover it with PVA or plastic. There is something called "Surface Agent" more commonly refered to as wax, that is added to gelcoat or the top layer of laminating resin to give a tack free cure. It can be found at most large suppliers that sell gelcoat but one of my favorites is www.fiberglasssupply.com

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