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Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Backstay adjuster?

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/29/2005 : 02:09:40

Is there an aftermarket back stay tension adjuster device for the 250 split backstay? If so, where; online or West Marine or...?
Thanks.

Frank Farmer
Long Beach, CA
aa.diver@verizon.net
http://mysite.verizon.net/aa.diver

PRETTY PENNY
'01 C-250 WK, Hull #558

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/29/2005 : 06:51:53

Frank,

The standing rigging of the 250 is a version of the B&R rig which uses radical raked spreaders to avoid having forward lower shrouds, this to accomplish bringing the jib sheeting inboard with cabin top tracks and winches. A full B&R rig doesn't use a backstay and Catalina's use of a backstay on the 250 is almost redundant.

Masthead B&R rigs are really not suitable to on the fly rig tuning and are normally adjusted quite firm so as to apply forward force on the spreaders, holding mast prebend or at least preventing reverse bend and offering a fairly firm headstay. This configuration provides a low power settup suitable for greater winds but of course lacks the ability to relax the rig to increase power in light air.

To set the rig up loose and then use a backstay tensioner to firm it presents a problem in that it will draw the masthead aft and loosen the upper shrouds even more than the loose condition that they are set to allow a tensioner to work. The effect will release further the forward pressure on the mast thereby allowing reverse bend which makes the mains'l fuller. It does tighten up the headsail...so the affect is a trade off whereas normally a backstay tensioner firms up both sails. Use of a backstay tensioner will see the leeward shrouds very loose and floppy when it is hardened.

This all of course is very unfortunate and if Catalina were designing a new 25 footer model, a backstay tensioner would be on my want list so as to provide on the fly tuning between firm and loose rig.

A few 250 owners have installed tensioners, including myself. It does require a loose rig, which the 250 is not designed for and will cause the 250 to be quickly overpowered in a breeze albeit hardening the backstay will reduce headsail power and boat heel at the cost of a fuller main and loose shrouds. What I'm simply saying is that the use of a backstay tensioner will not reduce the power of a 250 as much as a properly tuned firm rig.

If sailing in mostly light airs, a backstay tensioner could be a plus on the 250 as it would allow a loose rig and the ability to partially firm it up for a breeze. If however, winds over 13-15 are common, the rig will be overpowered and will demand quicker reefing of the main and will be subject to a greater propensity to be rounded up by puffs.

As I've said, I do use a tensioner on my boat...but I also use a running baby stay, which is an esoteric invention of mine that only racers or cruisers would want to fool with as it requires two extra steps when tacking.... releasing the running baby stay before tacking and resetting after, which requires using the lazy winch. The running baby stay does the job normally done by the raked spreaders of holding the center of the mast forward thus preventing the mainsail from becoming fuller when the backstay is hardenend.

A running baby stay is simply a substitute for a standing baby stay, which is found on some larger boats. A baby stay is a shroud from the mast near the spreaders to the foredeck center in lieu of forward lowers to the rail but the 250 has no adequate anchor location for one and even if it did, the boat is too small for one as the jib couldn't tack through it. The good thing is that a line running baby stay on the smaller 250 is adequate.

The system is quite simple and consist of a line from the mast at the spreaders, thru a stem block and back to a winch. Additionally, a bungee is needed to retract the stay to the front of the mast when it is released so as to clear it from obstructing the jib from tacking. Allthough the hardware is simple, adding two steps to every tack is not. Keep in mind however, that I only harden the baby stay in conjunction with hardening the backstay but that will be almost always when wind is above 13-15.

This is probably more than you wished to know about adding a backstay tensioner... Unless you primarily race or cruise, I'd not consider one on a 250.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 12/29/2005 06:59:24

Turk
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/29/2005 : 08:33:21

Arlyn

My 250 has a backstay tensioner that was installed by the PO. I'm not sure I understand all that you said here, but in simple terms, are you saying that the tensioner by pulling down on the mast head bends it backwards loosining the upper shrouds? That seems to make sense as the lower shrouds keep the lower portion of the mast in place. Last season I was constantly worried that my shroud tension was too loose as the leward upper shroud would go almost limp. Guess what, as the wind increased, I tightened the backstay - I was causing the problem. I guess I never thought it through.

So what is your recommendation for general cruising? Should I adjust the tension of the shrouds according to the numbers provided for the PT-1 gauge and just snug up the back tension lightly for stronger winds and tighter for light winds?

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/29/2005 : 10:02:16

Arlyn,

This brings up a point that has confused me about my new boat. The C250s I looked at before had a split backstay. It split about 10' above the deck, tying on to each side of the aft portion of the boat (I don't recall if it was the transom or what).

My new boat has an "unsplit" backstay that attaches to the cockpit sole near the coaming in the port side opening of the transom. Is that new, or did they change a few years ago, or..?

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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856 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2005 : 13:36:52

Kevin,
I have a 2004 C250-WB with the single port-side backstay (hull 793).
Russ

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2005 : 18:18:40

Turk, If the forestay has any loosness, setting a backstay tensioner will draw the mast head aft and in doing, both the upper and lower shrouds will loosen. I think you got it that the uppers do. Here is why the lowers do also.

The middle of the mast is held forward not by the lowers but rather by the uppers. Why? Because they are exerting forward pressure on the radical swept aft spreaders. That is the whole why of the raked spreaders... to hold the center of the mast forward...otherwise no one would want the intrusion of radical raked spreaders interfering with the main. This is the main departure of a B&R rig from a standard rig, which has forward lower shrouds that hold the center of the mast forward. The B&R rig is a method to clear the area of the lower forwards so that the jib sheets can be brought inboard and close the slot and tighten the jib angle to the wind.

The lower shrouds on the 250 are almost exclusively for the purpose of holding mast continuity (plumbness) and straightness laterally. Once the uppers relax, pressure is eased on the spreaders and the middle of the mast is free to reverse bend (bend aft in the middle) which pockets the main and powers it up, hence why I said that a backstay tensioner on a 250 while firming up the headsail...does the opposite to the main.

For general cruising and daysailing the rig on the 250 should be firm. The boat is really designed to have just one setting... firm. Racers however would barf at such a settup... they would never run a firm rig on a light air day and lose power so they would ajust the shrouds depending on the wind conditions. If it is blowing hard, they will tighten the turnbuckles a few turns and if the wind is light the shrouds will be relaxed.

One of the things learned in one design racing, is that there are several key tuning functions that will cause one boat to have a slight edge over another... to have any significant edge, several functional gains can add up. The power factor of the sails is certainly one of the biggies. If the wind is blowing good n hard, a powered up sail is a liability... it equates to drag, excess heeling, excess leeway, slowed airflow over the sails, etc., while on a light air day, a powered sail will grab what little force a zepher offers and ghost one past his competition.

Here is a guide to go by... from my experience, a backstay tensioner on a 250 set up with a loose rig for power, when hardened will reduce heeling by five degrees in a 15 kt wind. First thought might be...wow, thats great, that is the way to go. One has to remember however that the tensioner is powering up the mainsail even more though the firming effect on the headsail offers a net gain of five degrees less heel. If the rig were tuned firm... the boat would heel ten degrees less... this is a tested fact. I can harden my backstay tensioner and reduce heel by five degrees... when the running baby stay is set... heeling is reduced another five degrees. Of course, I run a loose rig.

If the rig is set firm as is intended on the 250, it will enjoy ten degrees less heel in a 15 kt wind, though it will not be as fast in lighter air.

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/29/2005 : 20:35:36

Arlyn, my shrouds are firm, the roller furled forestay is firm, the split backstay is somewhat loose. The manual says I should detach the main halyard, hang a weight on it, and let it hang til still. The distance from the halyard to aft of the mast should be 4 inches. I did it and the distance was almost 8 inches. Tensioning the split back stay would increase it even more, right? So best I should leave the back stay loose? I'm a day sailing cruiser, NOT a racer. Thanks.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/30/2005 : 08:46:15

Kevin,

The original design of the 250 had a single offset stay as is currently being fitted. That would beg the question, why the change in the intermediate years? The answer might be found in the history of the 250.

The 250 was a water ballast design with 200 produced the first year... but it took 3-4 years to produce the next 200. The reason... the 250 received a great deal of early criticism which stifled sales. The design was that of Gerry Douglas but any student of Frank Butler, knows that he professes that all of his boats are equally important just as a good parent loves all children equally. I think Frank believed enough in the 250 to do what it would take to overcome the problems.

The three primary issues were,
<ul><li>water ballast </li><li>handling issues </li><li>radical design changes </li></ul>
Roger Macgregor introduced water ballast to trailer sailors. Yacht sales had suffered some really bad years at the end of the '90s and with the vast available market of used boats, niche market boats were believed to be the hunker down saviour to keeping some new boat sales. Catalina's best sellers had been their shoal draft offerings and having to drop the 25 swing keel for safety issues, the replacement wing keel 25 wasn't an easy trailerable. So Frank jumped into water ballast to garner his market share of trailerable 25 footers. Traditional sailors skoffed at water ballast and especially so when most early water ballast designs had handling problems.

The c250 suffered the same handling problems of most of the water ballast designs. They rounded up quickly and were deemed much too tender. Water ballast was judged by the average sailor not to be a worthy ballast medium. Some yacht dealers who had purchased first year production 250's couldn't sell them, some sat two years hunting an owner. Catalina responded by adding the wing keel to escape the water ballast criticism and save the 250. Ironically, it was the wing keel that saved not just the 250, but the water ballast model as well.

The wing keel did not resolve the handling issues which had the imediate effect of both removing the blame from water ballast and forcing thought to what the handling issues really were. The problem was indentified to be the hull form needed for water ballast (one with more hull form righting arm) and a fix was determined to be a larger rudder along with increased reefing discipline to avoid excess heeling. Catalina redesigned and recalled the rudders and provided at no cost high aspect ratio rudder replacements. New boats were also fitted with a deep second reef point.

These changes pretty much solved the rounding up problems... but the rudder redesign again missed the mark. The high aspect ratio rudder would hold the boat from rounding up, but the grip needed took huge amounts of effort on the helm so the handling criticism continued. Five years after production started, Catalina offered their 3rd rudder design with enough control and balance to provide reasonable handling.

Even yet however, the rudder shipped with the water ballast is inadequate for good handling for aggresive conditions and the wheel steering ratio of the wing keel is inadequate for its large rudder. As often the case, the grass roots respond with experimentation to discover combinations that do provide optimized handling. Some of those conclusions are that that the 2nd generation beaching rudder when balanced slightly is the best choice for the water ballast model and that a better steering ratio for the wheel provides much easier and more precise handling.

The third criticism was the radical changes of the 250 such as <ul><li>its open transom </li><li>no exterior teak </li><li>no interior bulkheads </li></ul>
Early conversations on this forum about the 250 often included, "I wouldn't own a boat with an open transom" "they are dangerous" "they are not sea worthy". Only after testimonials of owners who enjoyed the open transoms did the misunderstood chatter stop...

The same was true for the lack of exterior teak... but as owners confessed their appreciation from the burdens of teak care... those criticisms have also greatly reduced.

Again, the same is true for the lack of interior bulkheads... as owners have appreciated the spacious interior and have discovered that the boat isn't going to collapse.

Finally, the answer to your question is within this historical look... Frank was likely looking to do what he could to reduce the criticisms and splitting the backstay was perhaps a simple way of saying, Catalina is dedicated to not skimping on hardware, I've promised to provide a good boat at a reasonable price and don't want to be labeled as a skimper. If the offset backstay was thought to be inadequate... centering it won't cost me that much.

The backstay on a c250 is basically redundant and in my opinion it makes no difference if centered or offset on a boat which has a single rig tune (firm) design. The more important consideration is what location best gets it out of the way.

More than you asked for...perhaps it will be found interesting.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 12/30/2005 09:11:45

kevinmac
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/30/2005 : 09:08:25

Arlyn,

It was very interesting, thank you.

Are you aware of rigging instructions, other than what is in the manual, somewhere on this site or elsewhere? I am convinced that my dealer, who's background is in racing, set up my boat with a very loose rig. I am thinking of getting a rigger (if I can find one) to redo it to specs, or trying to do it myself. I would like the "firm" rig you described, without the extras you have added. I will worry about a looser rig for racing later.

My mast was (and will be again when we raise it today) correct laterally. All of the rig (shrouds, stays) feels loose to me, but I am a novice, maybe I don't know what tight is. I can describe it this way - all of the stays and shrouds have no slack in them, but also no tension. You can grab any of them and wiggle them several inches. Hope that description makes some sense...

Thanks so much for the history lesson, I have read you previous posts on the subject, but this one added a historical/marketing context that was very helpful.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2005 : 09:35:51

Kevin,

I'm not privy to the current tuning instructions for the wing keel. Here are a few thoughts.

I've read several accounts of wing keel owners who say they can't achieve prebend (forward mast curvature)... so I'm willing to accept their conclusions.

Having never owned or used a a loose gauge, I can't reference them and in fact have read several accounts suggesting that loose gauges themselves are notoriously varied in their readings so that using their numbers as a standard is difficult.

I like the tried and true method of traditional sailors... using two fingers (the index and large) place the shroud in the crease of the first joints and using the strength of those two fingers (not the arm) deflect the shrouds. The uppers should deflect 1/2 to 1 inch. The lowers should deflect three times that.

There is danger in using loose guage numbers designed for other boats. One of them is that the numbers are often for shroud size rather than consideration of the rig. The lowers on the 250 for example if tightened to the tension of the uppers, will unquestionably cause unwanted reverse bend in the mast. Radical raked spreaders use the tension of the uppers to hold the center of the mast forward... this means that they must be fairly firm...and firming them properly will result in a firm forestay as well.

I do not blame your dealer who is a racer for tuning loose... but it does suggest he doesn't understand the nature of the 250.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/30/2005 : 10:02:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Kevin,

The original design of the 250 had a single offset stay as is currently being fitted. That would beg the question, why the change in the intermediate years? The answer might be found in the history of the 250. . . . . .

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Arlyn could you write a book? Please!

I'm actually serious here. Many of us have followed your posts and are amazed at your knowledge and clear writing style. I guess it would have a limited market of 700 or so owners, but maybe double or triple that as boats change hands. Hmmmmm there is an online service that will print and bind even one book at about $8-9 a book leaving you to sell it for $30 and a nice profit. I'll be your agent!

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/30/2005 : 10:42:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FARMHAND
 Arlyn, my shrouds are firm, the roller furled forestay is firm, the split backstay is somewhat loose. The manual says I should detach the main halyard, hang a weight on it, and let it hang til still. The distance from the halyard to aft of the mast should be 4 inches. I did it and the distance was almost 8 inches. Tensioning the split back stay would increase it even more, right? So best I should leave the back stay loose? I'm a day sailing cruiser, NOT a racer. Thanks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am guessing that your upper shrouds are way too tight. It is very difficult to just loosen them and correct the problem as other factors enter into the equation. I would loosen all the shrouds and backstay and start as the manual states with a straight mast with no prebend. Then follow it's instructions and turning each turnbuckle the same amount to get to a "equal" setting. You will learn how each pair of shrouds affects the prebend (tighter uppers more bend)

I found what you did last spring when I raised the mast. Prebend was 8 inches. I also learned you have to take off the collar from under the spreaders used for the mast raising system before messing with the shrouds (ops!) My uppers were way too tight. I backed off everything and spent an hour adjusting and watching the effects of the shrouds. With all this talk of prebend, remember you also have to adjust for side to side mast movement also. That is where it get complicated - correcting two movements at once (front back - side to side)

The manual also states that you need to tack and heel to find out if the uppers and lowers are tightened correctly. My adjustable backstay messed me up with this. This year I will back way off on the backstay for adjustment purposes. I spent alot of time flat on my back looking up the mast! I also purchased a PT-1 Professional tension gauge. I will use it only as a relative measure between shrouds. This model lets you measure as you are tightening the shroud.

By the way, don't measure prebend or anything on your trailer - get your boat level in the water.

Edit: Did I say level? That is a whole different thread!

Edited by - Turk on 12/30/2005 11:10:47

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/30/2005 : 12:28:45

I'd like to add to Arlyn's suggestions.

First, since your boat is new, remember that all your shrouds will stretch when they are first tensioned, and you should check them before you sail for the next few times, just to be sure they haven't become really sloppy. (They probably won't.) For that reason, you'll need to re-tune the whole rig after you have sailed the boat 5-6 times. They might stretch a little more during the first year, but not nearly so much as in the first few weeks.

Secondly, in determining the amount of deflection, as Arlyn suggests, remember that over-tightening the shrouds can damage the boat, so, if in doubt, don't tighten them any further.

Like Arlyn, I think a Loos gauge is not necessary or even very helpful for tuning your rig for general purposes. The manufacturer of the Loos gauge provides recommended tensions for stays of various sizes, but they are not valid for all boats, or for all purposes, or for all sailing venues.

In the C250 owner's manual, Catalina says: "NOTE: Rigging tensions may be measured with LOOS & Co. Model B tension gauge." Having said that, Catalina doesn't tell you what Loos gauge settings you should use. The reason why Catalina doesn't tell you what settings to use is because it's impossible to do so. It depends on where and how you use your boat. Catalina goes on to say: "Final tuning of the mast depends on local conditions and the cut and set of your sails. Consult your dealer or sailmaker for advice. More detailed information on this subject can be found in Wallace Ross' "Sail Power", published by Alfred A. Knopf in New York " In other words, if you race your boat, or sail it on windy San Francisco Bay, or on the often light-winded Chesapeake, you should ideally tune your boat differently for those purposes, and, if you need to tune specifically for those purposes, you can get more technical help by referring to "Sail Power" and other reference books.

The suggestions that Arlyn has made, and the suggestions that Catalina provides in its owner's manual, are good for the overwhelming majority of sailors, venues and purposes. The standardized Loos gauge tensions that the manufacturer suggests are also only approximations for general purposes. As such, they're no more accurate than the methods suggested by Arlyn and Catalina. On the contrary, by relying on a Loos gauge, you are less likely to learn what to look for in a correctly tuned rig. A Loos gauge can be helpful to a racer, who has, through traditional methods, tuned his boat for certain conditions. He can record those settings, and when racing again in similar conditions, he can re-tune the rig to the same settings that worked previously. In that way, he can tune it ideally for each race, whether it's in light air or heavy winds. For most sailors, a Loos gauge is an unnecessary expense.

The purpose of the stays goes beyond that of holding up the mast. They are also there to allow the mast to bend only in a certain direction, and to prevent it from bending too far, or in the wrong direction. Each stay plays a specific role in the overall scheme. Take a few minutes to think about the multiple purposes of each stay, and it'll help the whole rig-tuning process make sense. In his previous posts, Arlyn has given you lots of ideas about how they work.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/30/2005 : 14:53:14

Lets be certain we have clarity between mast rake and prebend. Mast rake is the distance the mast truck lies aft of the base of the mast... simply put, how much the mast leans back and as Turk points out, when the boot stripe is level.

It can be set on the trailer as easy as on the water if one has a leveling method for the boot stripe... on the water, weight should be adjusted to balance the boat on her lines prior to adjusting mast rake.

Prebend is the forward bow forced into the mast by pressures of the shrouds and stays. Shrouds are a generic term for the side stays whereas we normally call out the forestay and backstay. There are only two sets of shrouds on the 250, the lowers (sometimes called intermediate) and uppers... whereas most traditional boats such as the C22 & C25 have three sets, the additional being foreward lowers or occassionally called baby stays.

Here is the really important point that is often very confusing... to do away with the forward lowers, radical raked spreaders have to be used instead of straight spreaders to serve the purpose of the forward lowers which hold the center of the mast forward.

In order for those spreaders to exert the necessary force forward, the uppers have to be tight and remain tight. If they slacken, there is nothing but the strength of the mast extrusion to hold the center of the mast forward... therefore there can be no prebend with loose uppers on a c250. The backstay is all but redundant on the 250 and likely exist only to keep the naysayers at bay. It should be adjusted just firm enough to keep it off the mainsail roach.

Mast prebend (forward bow of the mast) is desirable because it flattens and depowers the mainsail in stronger winds. Taking the pocket out of the sail allows a strong breese to flow over the sail easier and quicker and provide lift at less drag cost than a thicker foil (sail powered up).

The 250 however has had a history of difficulty in obtaining prebend. The water ballast with the shrouds at the hull deck joint can obtain some but Steve makes an important point... the open structure with no interior bulkheads limits how much tension can safely be applied to the shrouds. The narrower angle of the shrouds on the wing keel have as far as I've read on this forum, all but prevented prebend from being obtained leaving a goal of simply avoiding reverse bend (the mast bowed aft) and hence why the lowers must be looser than the uppers. The lowers are the last to be adjusted... and final adjustment as Turk outlines is done by sailing to a close reach in a moderate wind, lay on ones back in he V berth and observe the middle of the mast to see if it is bowing laterally. If it is bowing to leeward, tighten the lowers equally being carefull to just arrive at holding the mast straight...any more will pull in reverse bend.

As Steve points out, racers will ajust their rig for a given days racing depending on the conditions. In light air, they don't want prebend, they want the sail to have full pocket and provide power but on a windy day, they have all the power they need and want to use it as efficiently as possible with the least drag.

A few years ago... a fair percentage of sailors cut their teeth on beach cats, many of them racing them in one design fleets. I'm pretty familiar with the Hobie 18 and raced it for many seasons. To be compeditive, one had to understand the dynamics of each of the mechanisms, mast rake, prebend, mast rotation, outhaul tension, and batten tension. Even the batten issue was complicated by where the batten yielded to provide pocket, at what percentage fore and aft... and racers sanded the battens where they desired it to give more bend.

Not to set any of these for a particular race course condition, yielded an advantage to ones compeditor in one design. Sure, some races are won and lost by mistakes and breaks or who had the best crew weight advantage for certain conditions... but I remember a great many where no sailor gave quarter by a mistake... the difference was ever so slight in the settup of the boat for current conditions.

While one design racing was exhilirating, the several atempts to race adjusted time were far less so. Perhaps it was because the pressure to perfect the rig tuning for conditons didn't seem as clearly defined and certainly wasn't as easy to detect without another equal boat to gauge ones efforts.

Thanks for the kind comments and suggesting a book... its a worthy idea but it seems to me that a web site suits the need to share and allows flexiblity a book doesn't. Phil Bermans book on the Hobie 18 was a fantastic resource and my racing successes should be mostly credited to him. I thought it was great that he would share his secrets... but that is the nature of racing, many racers want tough competition. Within our fleet, no one would volunteer much in the way of racing secrets unless asked... then they were shared... and it made for a lot of asking and good communication.

A web site however has some powers not available in a book... the pages can be modified, upgraded, expanded so easily.

A rig tuning offering is on the site, perhaps it needs updating.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 12/30/2005 15:02:23

kevinmac
Admiral

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Response Posted - 01/01/2006 : 01:56:53

Thanks very much to all of you, very helpful.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.