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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Keel Question

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tcox
1st Mate

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USA
32 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/30/2005 : 15:01:55

Since my C-25 is a fin keel, I probably shouldn't be sticking my nose into a swinger's business. However, I keep reading about the possiblity of a keel cable breaking and sinking a boat. Many of the swingers at our lake (El Dorado Lake in Kansas) keep their keels up because we have a terrible problem with Zebra Mussels. Some of the boat's keel trunks have become so packed with mussels that they can not raise the keel. That problem leads to a "catch 22" as they can't get the boat out of the water to remove the mussels with the keel down (we have no crane), but they can't get the mussels chipped out of the trunk to get the keel up. These pests become hard as concrete! All of that said, my real question is: can there not be a way to lock the keel up so that a failed cable would not case a catastrophic fall? What about a hole through the trunk above the waterline going through the keel in which a dowel might be placed to lock the keel up? Might this be possible?

Brisa de Verano - Wichita, KS

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2005 : 18:34:29

There is no "trunk above the waterline:" the keel is completely submerged even when raised. As for the keel cable breaking, this is much less likely in your fresh water lake than in salt water with its corrosion. Either way, the cable (or pennant, as it's also called) should be replaced every few years. It's a small price to pay for peace of mind.

Just for the record, my boat's previous owner kept the boat in salt water -- moored with the keel up -- for eight years and never replaced the cable. I wouldn't recommend that, but it's interesting, given the horror stories.

I replace all my keel hardware every three years. The boat is in salt water except in winter, when it's on the hard.

Do zebra mussels not respond to antifouling paint, or is that banned in your lake?

Brooke
Urbanna, VA

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 12/30/2005 18:36:21

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2005 : 23:01:48

google zebra mussels
so far lake cheney is the only lake that has been impervious to them, we have too many farm chemicals in our water for them to thrive.
we use anti fouling in Kansas, no regs.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2006 : 08:22:47

The best defense against the keel cable breaking is regular maintenance of the system. If the cable and other parts are in good condition, the keel won't drop suddenly. Suppose you had a pin holding it up, and the cable was deteriorated and you didn't know it. If you went over to the lake for a sail, and pulled the pin to take her out, when the deteriorated cable took up the full weight of the keel, the cable would break and the keel would drop. A lot of those swingers have been sailing for almost thirty years without any serious problems. I don't remember hearing any reports of the keel dropping when the system was properly maintained.

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ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2006 : 11:52:54

The only good reason to keep the keel up is shallow water in your slip.An easy way to rig a preventer is to run a line under the bow then under the keel and up to the cabin top winches.Tie off at one winch, tension slightly with the other then to a cleat.My swing keel gear is upgraded , never more than two years old and I treat it like it could break at any time.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2006 : 21:02:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ct95949
 The only good reason to keep the keel up is shallow water in your slip...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Another reason might be what Terry described above. (Not that it's his problem...)

Terry: They should be able to get some antifouling paint up into the trunk--I did that with a much skinnier centerboard trunk on a day sailer years ago.

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ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 11:31:03

Hi Dave

I hate to contradict one of our experts and it is a rather trivial point but how will keeping the keel up stop the zebra mussels? With the keel all the way up the trunk is still exposed and submerged.Mussels won't sink a boat but a broken keel cable will.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 14:35:56

Read the post again. He didn't say that keeping the keel up would stop zebra mussels. He said antifouling paint in the keel trunk would stop them.

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tcox
1st Mate

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USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 14:49:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ct95949
 Hi Dave

I hate to contradict one of our experts and it is a rather trivial point but how will keeping the keel up stop the zebra mussels? With the keel all the way up the trunk is still exposed and submerged.Mussels won't sink a boat but a broken keel cable will.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The point in keeping the keel up at our lake is in case the mussels are discovered packing the trunk, at least the boat can be trailered out of the water for cleaning. It seems that even with anti-fouling paint these little guys (the larvae are microscopic) can sometimes get a foothold on the smallest bare surface. Once the colony has begun they attach to each other in unbelievable numbers very quickly.

Edited by - on

tcox
1st Mate

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USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 14:55:05

By the way Frank,

I fear that it is only a matter of time for you guys. I have heard that Zebra Mussels have been spotted in the Ninnescah, and it contains the same farm runoff. Also, we both know that a lot of boats travel back and forth from ElDorado to Cheney. We really need to help keep those boaters educated at methods to stop the spread.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 15:25:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ct95949
 I hate to contradict one of our experts...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm no expert on swingers... and proud of it!

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2006 : 19:30:04

on the topic of zeebra mussels: In the Great Lakes where the ZM was introduced by foreign freighters dumping their balast tanks (now illegal) They took hold in Lake Erie, where the water was particularly dirty, and becoming prolific very quickly provided the means of their own regulation. By cleaning the water so efficiantly they created favorable conditions for organisms that feed on their microscopic larvae.

As for the swing keel, it is always best left down for two reasons,
1. a slack pennant is not under the strain of holding up 1500 lbs.
2. when the keel is kept up there is no fixed point holding the keel in place (in the trunk) so it tends to wobble causing wear on the keel pin. The keel pin wear comes from the keel rocking back and forth as the boat sits at a mooring or at the dock.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2006 : 22:37:57

John, your argument for keeping the keel down has been debated in this forum ad infinitum et ad nauseum. There are strong reasons for both positions (literally). Catalina says to keep it up. My boat, docked with the keel up for twenty years, has zero pin wear. Others have strong arguments for leaving it down.

As St. Francis said, "only God can say always and never."

Brooke

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2006 : 17:20:01

A keel that is held in the up position has only one way to go. It can go down slowly, at your comand and in your control, or it can go down rapidly when the pennant fails. this usually results in the loss of the vessel. Neither manual gives any indication as to Catalina's preference, however it has always been my understanding that the swing keel is still a keel and not a centerboard. Designed exclusively for ease of trailering in both the 22 and the 25 it is to be retracted when the boat is pulled. Sorry to put in my oar once more, but I feel very strongly on this topic, and as we have seen recently one of our newbies showed the duck tape repair of a trunk stoved by a free dropping keel, this type of accident is not uncommon. When it comes to the safety of our members I prefer to share advice that is on the consirvative side.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 01/10/2006 : 07:59:26

To quote directly from the original C 25 manual (available on line):

"Should you decide to keep a retractable-keel model in the water at a slip or mooring for extended periods where electrolysis is a potential problem, the following suggestions may help to protect the keel assembly . . . Keeping the keel in the raised position will help prolong the life of the cable (7x19, 1/4" S.S.) by keeping as much of it out of the water as possible."

You are absolutely right that a free fall from a parted cable is catastrophic, hence the need for maintenance. At the same time, I agree with Catalina -- and my boat has twenty years of evidence to support the claim -- that keeping the keel up better protects the pennant. I also believe the keel wobbles less when tightly wedged in the trunk than when down, and again, my boat demonstrates such. The leverage on a raised keel is a fraction of that on a lowered keel. Of course, if you sail in fresh water, corrosion is much less an issue than here in the Chesapeake or other saline waters. Bear that in mind as you compare apples and oranges.

My physics are too rusty to do the math, but the pennant does not support the full weight of the keel: there is another attachment point at the pivot. At worst, I think, the pennant supports half the keel weight. A tremendous weight, to be sure, but not the full amount.

If you have the luxury of docking/mooring the boat in 5+ feet MLW (especially if the water is fresh), then it makes sense to leave the keel down. Many of us don't have that privilege, which is why we have swingers, and it's really only for that group that this issue is germane (plus the poor guy who some time ago discovered that his pennant was encrusted with barnacles). To be absolutely secure, either spend the $ 3 - 4000 for a wing conversion (half for the keel itself, the other half for shipping and yard work) or trade for a fixed keel boat.

Indeed, if you neither trailer nor sail in thin water, a swinger is unnecessary. I bought "Chance" eight years ago when I had a two hour window on either side of high tide to get in and out of the creek where I kept the boat. That was with the keel UP -- and even then we occasionally ran aground. Having moved five years ago, the rationale for keeping the boat -- aside from money and love -- is that she has a 4' MLW slip that's really economical compared to deep water slips in the same marina. Still, if I ever have a next boat, it will have a deeper, fixed keel, because my sailing circumstances have changed.

I'm done. And, it seems to me, we ought to stick a fork in this too well discussed topic by agreeing to disagree. It's all in the archives, again and again.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 01/13/2006 09:49:34

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 13:09:00

Brooke this is taking on the proportions of a crusade. I sense tension in your responses to newbees rehashing old data. Not a healty position to be in. Perhaps it's time to sit back and let the next gen figure it out. Non-judgemental comment just concern that the THING has gone on too long. What do you think?

Val on the hard DAGNABIT # 3936

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 13:38:43

Val, respectfully, I don't think my original response to a "newbie" was offputting. It certainly wasn't intended to be. My other posts were to an experienced poster pointing him to archived discussions. I don't think I'm the one who made dogmatic assertions: on the contrary, I suggested what you do with your keel depends mightily on your circumstances.

However, as I said in the last post, I absolutely agree with you that the topic is exhausted.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 01/13/2006 13:53:26

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2006 : 16:54:00

AMEN

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