Association Forum - How Many Sailing With Original Sails

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

How Many Sailing With Original Sails

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/03/2006 : 06:43:58

I bought my '89 cat 25 in fall'05. It came with what appears to be the original sails. I have a CDI furler and the boat presently has a furling jib on her. In the bag is a furling 150 Genoa. I took a look at the Genoa and the stitching looks fine and the sail cloth does not seem worn out at least from visual look when I unpacked it at my house. All the lines are worn but I guess still usable - work best with gloves on since the sheets are a bit rough when the line slips thru the hands. I guess my concern is that I notice that when I am at a close hauled tack, the main is most noticeably luffing. I guess this is what happens when a sail gets old and blown out ? How does one determine when it is time to replace sails ? When the bank balance has extra in the kitty ? I do not race but I guess the luffing bothers me since I know how to trim a sail and there is nothing that can be done to take out the luffing. On a broad reach or sailing downwind, then no issues.

Second issue - The stays, noticeably the one that attaches to the stern, the turnbuckle adjustments are at the very end - no threads. This appears to be because the shackle that attaches the furling rig to the bow is probably shorter than it should be.The furler attaches to a shackle onto the deck anchor rollers hardware. (I think I have a photo on my website of the furling/bow area.) I think it has something like 1 1/2" inside dimension on the shackle and probably should be replaced with a shackle that has an inside length dimension of about 3" - 3 1/2" so that the stays can be taken up a bit more by the turnbuckle on the transom. Any others have this set up ? How do you replace the shackle at the bow without having the furling rig come down ? Just hook up a temporary line to hold the furler in place and then change out the shackle ?

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 07:52:08

Larry,

I’m not familiar with your furler, so I’d get a second opinion but the lowers should hold your rig up while your swap out the hardware on the forestay/furler.

dw

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 08:10:24

Hi Larry, I still use my 79 sails, North and am still able to use the downhaul to flatten enough for crusiing. I have used the stick on sail repair cloth for the wear places which have only been the batten pockets. If a thread repair is needed I would take the sail to a loft that repairs. My plan is to use the sails until no longer repairable. I keep the covers on with a large jib bag so the sail doesn't have to be stuffed. Your question of adding a fitting to the forestay about releasing it can be done with just using a safety line from your main halyard or spinaker halyard as your lowers will keep the mast inplace. I use the turnbuckles for adjustment and a change would call for inspection which I do each season. I also installed the 4 spring CD bracket, good pictures. Good sailing.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 08:40:36

Thanks for inputs !

I do not have a boom vang and believe there are no attachment points on the boom but don't like the way the sail looks when close hauled because most take pride in trimming the sails so that they are smooth and filled out and that is just not possible. Afriend of mine that has an old Oday19 has same issue with the sail flapping a bit even when trimmed. he indicated it was because the sails ar eold but he lives with it rather than replace them.

My sails look fine as far as they do not appear to need any repair - sail cloth does not appear to have overly worn material. Just that I believe it lost it's shape many moons ago.

Larry

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 08:52:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...I guess my concern is that I notice that when I am at a close hauled tack, the main is most noticeably luffing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...A friend of mine that has an old Oday19 has same issue with the sail flapping a bit even when trimmed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Larry,

When you say your sail is "luffing", do you mean leech is loose and flapping or a bubble has formed on the luff (backwinding)?

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 08:59:36

Hi Larry,

I may be mis-reading your post but if you are sailing with the 150 close hauled the main's leading edge probably is luffing because the slot is too tight. Try easing the genny and taking up on the main's outhaul. This should control the luffing. That said it's a tradeoff when sailing tight on the wind and there are times when mainsail luffing (in the forward quarter of the sail) is unavoidable. The problem is because of the size of the genny. Under the same conditions I'd imagine that a 135 genny would ease the condition.

Or so it seems on Calista when using a 150 going to weather, and that's with new sails.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT # 3936

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 09:00:07

Larry,

I think I still have the original sails on my boat, although the genoa may be newer. In re main sail luffing: if the fabric still is somewhat stiff as it should be (indicating it still has some resin coating), you might consider having a sail loft add a leach line to the sail. This will allow you to lighten the leach and probably stop the luffing. Alternatively, the shop can recut the sail to tighten the leach. They can also tell you whether the sail still has any life left in it. I think I paid about $50-75 to have a leach line added to my main a couple years ago.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 09:07:28

Sails

The condition of the sails on your 1989 boat depends on the original quality of the sails and how they were used and maintained. I bought my 1981 boat new, without sails, and ordered my original sails for the boat from North. Although I bought a new 150 a few years ago, the old 150 was still my preferred light air sail when I sold the boat last year, and I used it much more than the new one, both for racing and for cruising. (I only used the new one when the wind piped up.)

When you say the mainsail is “luffing,” are you saying that the leech (the trailing edge) of the sail is fluttering when you’re sailing to windward, or that the luff (the leading edge) of the sail is fluttering?

If the leech of the sail is fluttering, your mainsail should have a leechline and cleat on the leech of the sail. If so, you should be able to put just a little tension on it and cleat it off to eliminate any fluttering.

If the luff of the sail is fluttering, then that is usually caused by sheeting the jib in too close, backwinding the mainsail. Easing the jibsheet very slightly should stop it. It might also help to bear off a couple of degrees. If you're carrying too much sail for the amount of wind, it might help to tuck in a reef.

Turnbuckles

The lowers should hold the mast up with the headstay and backstay detached, but that assumes that the rig is tuned correctly for cruising, and not for racing. I wouldn’t trust that to be the case. It doesn’t take long to rig safety lines, and if the mast comes down, you’ll kick yourself for not rigging them. To rig safety lines, just tie a piece of line to your main halliard, and then tie it to a cleat or other point near the stern. Next, tie a piece of line to your jib halliard, and then tie it to a cleat or other point near the bow. Now you can remove the headstay and backstay without worrying that the mast might come down on you.

I’ve found that sometimes the turnbuckles on the headstay and backstay can get so far out of adjustment that one is adjusted down way too much, and you can only turn the other one down by a couple of threads. If that has happened, the solution is to completely remove both turnbuckles, and then put them back on, and alternately turn each one down ten turns at a time, until the headstay and backstay have the appropriate tension. I suggest you do that before you replace the shackle. It might eliminate the need for a different shackle.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 12:41:55

Correction - You guys are right. it is the leech (trailing edge) of the main sail that is fluttering. The furling jib was on the boat when i bought it and I have not attempted to replace it with the 150 furling rig Genoa. that Genoa is still in the sail bag, though, I took it out the other day and spread it out at home to see if any worn sports. it looks okay but not shure how it holds it shape when on the boat.

I guess my main concern right now is the main sail and the fluttering.

I figured that the sails are blown out and need to be replaced considering they are the original (15+ years old).

I have to study some of your inputs a bit more - take a look at the main sail and see what yuo are talking about concerning a leech line. Also, sounds like it may be best to bring the main sail into a local sailmaker and have them evaluate it.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 14:44:43

you have battens don"t you?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 19:22:52

I have battens - The short ones. They don't go across the whole way.

Larry

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 22:58:44

"I figured that the sails are blown out and need to be replaced considering they are the original (15+ years old)."

If the boat has been sailed much in moderate+ air... I think you're right on the money.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 06:35:45

Bruce,

I am going to check out the leech line next opportunity I have to raise the main sail. (I'll be out of town this weekend). But a friend of mine told me that his experience was that if you tighten it too much it then cuts performance. My own gut feeling after reading some of the info on the web and an old issue of Practical Sailor is that the sails are blown out. It is just that many of us get by with old sails and for general cruising, etc you probably can get away for many years with old sails. You just get use to them.

My boat sails fine...well..it goes and it is just a case of on a scale of 1-10 in performance, these are probably a 3. many that buy the regular cruising sails probably start at at a 7 to begin with and the 8,9& 10 top performance is probably only capable of high performance sails which require a significant investment. About 1-2 months ago, I sailed down the Potomac River where a friend of mine frequently crews on an S2 or one of the other boats. That day, i actually came across him. there were 4 sailboats in a race. There was one Catalina 25 in the mix but he was a bit slower than the others and not sure what the other boats were. All I know is they were quick. One came fairly close to me and I could tell his sails were of a different breed altogether. When i saw my friend, he indicated that fella sailing had fairly new sails and he thought they cost upwards of $5000 for the two of them !

I am just into day cruising around and of course would not want to be passed by everyone (and I am not). But the fluttering of the tail edge of the sail kind of bothers me - looks like I do not know how to trim a sail.

The reality of the situation is that if you go by what the sailmakers and the books on sailing indicate, everyone would be changing their sails every 7 years or so and their stays every 10 years. But very few would do that. We have other things in our lives to consider and so those timetables do not even enter most people's minds. But ...having a boat that is 15-20 years old and some of these issues are contemplated.

Thanks for your input.

Larry

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 11:00:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...a friend of mine told me that his experience was that if you tighten it [the leech line] too much it then cuts performance.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's true, but the fluttering leech disturbs the airflow across the leech of the mainsail, and the effect is much worse than the slight cupping of the leech that might occur by putting a little tension on the leech line. If you put just enough tension on the leech line to stop the fluttering leech, it'll help a lot more than it'll hurt. Most new sails are made with leech lines. Leech lines aren't used just for old, blown out sails. Even new sails built by top quality sailmakers need leech line adjustments for top performance, so don't be hesitant to use leech lines

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...if you go by what the sailmakers and the books on sailing indicate, everyone would be changing their sails every 7 years or so and their stays every 10 years. But very few would do that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> A lot of people spend a lot of money to buy new sails who, IMHO, don’t need them. Whether you need new sails depends on how you use your boat. If you are a serious racer, competing not just in club racing, but at higher levels against the most skilled racers, then you need to use the best racing sails and replace them frequently. At that level, all the racers are skilled, and all the boats are well-prepared for racing, and the small advantage that you can gain from new sails matters. If you’re a club racer, you can get by with much older sails, depending on how hard you use them, and how well you maintain them. Club racers make more mistakes, and you’re more likely to beat them by avoiding mistakes than by having new sails. If you’re a serious cruiser who might occasionally get caught out in high winds and heavy seas, you need good, strong sails with good enough shape to let you claw off a lee shore if necessary. If you like to daysail around a sheltered lake or bay, or do a little casual beer can racing, you can get by with almost any old sails.

IMHO, the most important thing you can do to make your sails last a long time is to keep them out of the sun as much as possible. Bag them, or cover them, or roll them up as soon as you’re done with them for the day. Sunlight reduces the resilience of sailcloth. It reduces it’s ability to stretch and return to its original shape. More than anything, that’s what causes baggy sails. If you keep sails out of the sun, even old ones can still have good shape.

A friend of mine races his J24 in very competitive J24 one-design club racing. Last year he replaced his laminated sails, and his results were about the same as his results the previous season, when he used his old sails. At times, I either skippered his boat or crewed for him during the previous season, and we could win with the old sails if we sailed a good race, but we could not win if we made mistakes. I didn’t feel we were the least bit handicapped by his old sails.

If you come upon another C25 that is significantly faster than yours, his speed is more likely to be attributable to the fact that his bottom, keel and rudder are smoother and cleaner than yours, and not because his sails are better or newer than yours.

On a sailboat, speed begets even more speed. As boat speed increases, the apparent wind speed increases, and that increases the amount of power that your sails can extract from the actual wind. With more power in your sails, your boat can generate even more speed, which increases apparent wind speed even more, which generates still more power in your sails. If your bottom, keel and rudder are rough or dirty, they create drag, which “rubs off” the speed that your boat is capable of achieving, and they prevent it from generating as much apparent wind as possible.

If you really need new sails to significantly enhance the way you use your boat, and have the resources to do so, then buy them. But, as Larry pointed out, some of us have other priorities than just sailing. If you recently bought a boat, I suggest you smooth the underwater surfaces first, to see how good you can make it without buying new sails. If the bottom is really foul, stripping and repainting it will do far more for it than new sails. If it’s really smooth and clean, you can use baggy sails to easily beat many other boats with brand new sails but foul bottoms.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 11:04:19

Hi Larry... We might be able to get you a few more years out of those sails... Overtightening a leech line can indeed hurt preformance if it causes the sail to "cup". I'm wondering if your battens are the correct length for the pockets. Also, you can reduce "twist", which allows the upper part of the sail to luff when the lower part is full, by moving your traveler to leeward so the mainsheet is pulling down more and across less when close-hauled. (In light air, do the opposite, but sail a little lower to the wind.) A vang might help even more--you would need to have a bail (attachment point) installed on the boom. Then you'll be ready for a nice set of mylar/kevlar laminated sails!

Another issue related to your forestay and backstay length is the balance of your rig. When sailing upwind, if you release the tiller, does the boat turn toward or away from the wind? If away, you have "lee helm" and the mast is tipped too far forward. To move it back, you might need that longer shackle. If you have a slight amount of "weather helm", that's how it should be, and you don't want to pull the mast back much further. Of course, sail trim can also affect the helm, but the rake of the mast determines your average condition.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/04/2006 11:11:04

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 12:23:52

Steve/Dave, Thanks for the comments. I do not have an opportunity to go sailing..believe till next week. But I will check out the leech line first. That may make a significant improvement.

Other things that were mentioned: The traveler and the stays being properly adjusted. I have never touched the traveler. It is set up on the centerline of the boat. Also, I do not have a vang and believe there is no attachment point since I was considering adding one and checking this out. Many years ago, when I had other boats, I thought they sold some contraption that could be attached without drilling holes into the boom. believe it straddled the boom. Anyone know about this ? In regards to the traveler, this may be a stupid question - Do I loosen up the line on each side so the traveler can move to the lee side whether tacking to port or starboard or do you have to adjust the traveler each tack ?

The forestay and backstays do need adjustment ! My initial post for this topic, I mentioned about replacing the shackle that attaches the furling rig to my anchor-roller support. The mechanic that used to work on this boat for past 4 years with PO went over various tweakings with me as to what should be done and one was replacing the shackle with a longer one. This is because the present setup requires the backstay to barely thread onto the turnbuckle. The threads do not come into the turnbuckle sufficiently to attach the circular cotter ring preventing the turnbuckle from loosening. It doesn't loosen (not yet anyway) but the fact is that if adjusted properly, the threads should come further into the turnbuckle and that cannot be done because the forestay cannot be loosened.

I just bought two different shackles to see which one works best attached to the furling rig and the anchor-roller support point. The present shackle has approximately a 1 7/8" inside dimension and the new shackles I bought, one has a 2 1/2" inside dimension (made by Ronstan w/keyed locking handle similar to what is on boat right now) and a 3 1/8" inside dimension shackle (made by Wichard w/screw type handle). The Wichard one does not have such a positive lock on it but is advantageous since it is longer. the screw handle has a hole in it and so I also bought a SS cotter ring which I could attach to the handle and secure to the shackle body.

Anyway, when I replace the shackle which I was planning on doing, that will effectively move the mast about 1" - 1 1/8" forward. I am a little hesitant to do it because I have not done something like this before and I do not have a tension meter to readjust all the stays. I may call the mechanic to do the installation and readjust all stays.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 14:11:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...In regards to the traveler, this may be a stupid question - Do I loosen up the line on each side so the traveler can move to the lee side whether tacking to port or starboard or do you have to adjust the traveler each tack?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Generally, just before I tack, I release the traveller so it slides to leeward and then secure it there. After the tack, the traveller is now on the windward side. I ease the traveller to leeward when conditions warrant it.

Edited by - on

clayC
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 16:24:02

Wasn't there a post some time about a place that would refurbish sails?
Clay C

Edited by - on

danandlu
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 18:31:04

Yes, here it is.

http://sailcare.com/

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2006 : 11:26:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...when I replace the shackle which I was planning on doing, that will effectively move the mast about 1" - 1 1/8" forward. I am a little hesitant to do it because I have not done something like this before and I do not have a tension meter to readjust all the stays. I may call the mechanic to do the installation and readjust all stays.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Larry, don't be intimidated by the thought of tuning your own rig. You don't need a tension meter, and it's not that complicated. Almost all of us do it ourselves.

The short explanation is that you just make sure the mast is erect (not leaning to one side or the other, and not leaning either forwards or aft). Then, you tighten all the stays snugly (the uppers are longer than the lowers, so the uppers need more tension on them than the lowers). Lie on your back and sight up the mast to make sure it's straight. Then you tighten all the lock nuts and/or circlips on the turnbuckles. Then, sail the boat in 8-10 kt. winds and take note of whether the boat has "weather helm" or "lee helm." (Weather helm means that, when you let go of the tiller, the boat tends to sail directly to windward. Lee helm means that, when you let go of the tiller, the boat tends to bear away from the wind.) The boat should have slight weather helm. If it has lee helm, you should go back to the docks and readjust the whole rig so as to tilt it aft slightly (it doesn't take much). If it has too strong weather helm, you should tilt the whole rig slightly forward. Sail it again to be sure it's just right.

The first time you do it, it would help to round up an experienced sailor on the docks or among your friends and ask him to help you. Most sailors are friendly folks, and are happy to help if asked. After you’ve done it once, you’ll realize how easy it is, and you’ll be able to do it yourself every year afterwards.

I’m sending a more detailed explanation to your email address. Let me know if you don’t receive it.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2006 : 12:23:21

Thanks Steve !

I'm out of town starting tomorrow afternoon and may have to do same thing next week - My 2 kids in college - one coming back (graduated) and one getting the other's furniture. But then will get tempted to replace the shackle and adjust the stays.

Larry

Edited by - on

quintjk
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 01/10/2006 : 20:16:13

still get great light wind performance from the original factory
"1980' ALSO HULL # main, it's a little sloppy in 12k + winds but
really holds her own on a family cruise.

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.