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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Bow weighting idea

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/03/2006 : 20:11:23

Home Depot has 40# bags of river pebbles @ 5 bucks per bag. 6 or 7 of 'em should do the trick for a modest cost of under 40. Anyone gone the rock route for bow weighting?

Frank Farmer
Long Beach, CA
aa.diver@verizon.net
http://mysite.verizon.net/aa.diver

PRETTY PENNY
'01 C-250 WK, Hull #558

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 21:22:54

Frank,
The big orange box is where I got my sand, they also had rolls of sticky plastic. Its kind of like "Saran wrap" only heavy duty and sticky on one side. I got a 25' roll and wrapped the sand bags for extra protection, its very durable. I have 300# up front, but I'm thinking about taking 50# out.

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stewendkos
Navigator

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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2006 : 03:32:58

Tom,
Does the weight really help and in what way?
Steve

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2006 : 13:08:59

I am with Steve, is there a reason for the extra weight needed up in the bow? Sailing on a lake I have not noticed any siginificant need to add weight up front.

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bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2006 : 15:20:57

"Brandy" my C250 WB sets pretty even on her lines at the dock. I have one 10 pd mushroom anchor under the V berth and another 15 pd fluke anchor in the anchor locker. A third 15 pd fluke anchor is under the port settee. The classic 8 hp Honda is not down in the water very far, but never had it cavatate either. However I have had the bow "slap" a few times when encountering large waves.

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Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2006 : 19:02:29

The best my boat has ever sailed was when I was on a 5 day trip in the gulf about a year ago. I believe it was because of all the extra weight on board. Once back home on the lake and running light she just didn't feel the same after having sailed with that weight. After researching awhile I decided to add the weight. Now she feels like she did on that gulf trip. Couple of other things I've noticed is; I can see a little better over the bow now that its down a couple inches, the wind don't blow the bow around as easy while docking and I have plenty of tongue weight once on the trailer. Here's some more talk on the subject. http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10878&SearchTerms=bow,weight

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stewendkos
Navigator

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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2006 : 23:47:35

Tom,
Okay I'm sold;Tomorrow I'm headed for Lowes to buy the sand.I'll start with 150Ibs.
Thanks for all the info.I'll let you know the result.
Steve

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Capt. Kurt
Navigator

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185 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2006 : 16:46:22

Just curious,
Does the extra weight make it more difficult to get boat all the forward onto the trailer? I find I have to have someone aft to help raise the bow when pulling 'Tortuga' out of the water as it is. Otherwise I have 1-2" between bow and bow roller.

Maybe my ramp is not sloped enough, because if I back down any further I will have water coming into the cab.

One of these days I will try Arlyn's trick of putting dish soap on the trailer carpet and slamming on the brakes! :)

[url="http://www.texassailor.com/photo16.htm"]Here is a visual of higher freeboard on WK vs. WB[/url]

Thanks,
Kurt

#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

Edited by - Capt. Kurt on 01/06/2006 17:28:16

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2006 : 19:06:46

Kurt, Have you looked into a trailer extension to get the trailer into the water more? If someone stood behind my C 250 when putting it on the trailer he would need scuba gear. I'm sure its a matter of water depth and slope of the ramp, probably both working against you.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2006 : 10:53:59

In looking back over the thread that Tom pointed to... the question was asked about Catalina's design thought regarding how the bow could have been light.

First, when the 250 was designed, the most common outboard for these boats was a two stroke weighing less than 80 lbs and we are now hanging motors on them weighing 50% more.

Second, the 250 has proven herself to be a fine small cruiser so more battery capacity and other cruising gear are added, I don't think Catalian appreciated the 250 being used as a cruiser.

Third, when the 250 was initially offered for critique, early testers questioned her lead (having to do with boat balance), that her center board was too far forward and that the inadequate lead percentage might be the reason for her poor behavior when heeled. They were in fact right. Early owners learned that holding the board in an aft raked position reduced weather helm and rounding up. Catalina responded by adding a stop block in later center board models to keep the center board from going full down.

How did this happen? When one reads about naval architecture, it becomes clear that it is not an exact science and that many things are learned from experience. Water ballast trailerables were new stuff... and while it had been appreciated that all designs don't hold to the same lead percentages, the very high lead percentages needed for the hull form used on water ballast while having been anticipated, not quite to the degree ultimately needed.

There was more than one comment in those early critiques that questioned how much the 250 proto had been sailed before production began and how the lead issue could have been missed. The answer to this may be found in the Catalina strategy.

The Catalina strategy was Frank Butler's desire/promise to provide the most boat for the money and to do that had relied very heavily on customer feedback to continually refine. Frank was a giant at this... willing to talk on the phone and listen to every concern from every buyer. In a sense, some part of his R&D program was really delayed until models were in customers hands and they were telling him what needed tweeked.

With water ballast sales stalled because of acceptance and blame issues on water ballast, the wing keel option which may or may not have ever been intended for the 250 was offered. Gerry Douglas, the 250 designer, was faced with the need to apply a wing keel to a hull designed for water ballast and this time hopefully avoid missing the keel location. It may have ended up being a compromise.

Now known was that the hull needed a high lead percentage and the keel would have to be well aft to avoid baulky behavior issues and placing it there would mean a light bow. In fact, I'd bet a gold guinea that Gerry Douglas would have liked to have it aft a slight bit further relative to the handling issues but was contrained by fore/aft balance all ready compromised a noteable amount.

To further illustrate the difficulty of understanding the water ballast hull design, here is my total speculation of what happened in regard to the tall rig and the 150 genoa.

When the wing keel was fitted, I'm thinking that the thought was, gosh, we've added a wing keel to a hull designed for interior ballast having a lot of hull form righting arm, it ought to now have killer righting arm so lets load this baby up with huge amounts of power and let it scream.

History records that the result were that the initial poor behavior of the water ballast became extreme poor behavior and the tall rig and 150 genoa were abandoned, and a realization of the power limits of the hull form became reality. Once the boat heels over on her wide square bilge... she baulks... this hull form simply wasn't going to tolerate heavy heeling and having excess power aloft putting her on those bilges doesn't work.

If interested in a theory of why the 250 doesn't like to be rolled over on her bilges and why she seems to enjoy a bit less weather helm with bow trimmed properly down, which seems to go against normal weather helm dynamics... I've offered some speculative [url="http://stewartfam.net/arlyn/cause_of_weather_helm.html"]theory.[/url]

Edited by - on

HARRY
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2006 : 17:34:19

Thanks Arlyn for the theory it is very helpful. I have a water ballast 2003. I us a 150 genoa most of the time. I have moved the two Battery right in front of the water tank. I keep the water tank full. That helped allot. I have been thinking about adding two more battery for an inverter in the bow. It would be more useful than sand. What do you think?

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