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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Lazy Jacks versus Dutchman

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JJM
Navigator

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USA
170 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/31/2006 : 16:04:52

I am considering adding either Lazy Jacks or a Dutchman flaking system to my boat.

Does anyone have 'hands on' experience with either of these two? If so, can you let me know how you feel about them?

Appreciate your responses here!

John
"Enchanted Becuma"
C250 '04 WK #746

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2006 : 16:22:01

No hands on experience, but when I looked into this about two years ago, the system I liked the most was the E-Z-JAX http://www.ezjax.com/

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2006 : 17:24:22

I have the Dutchman, it came on my boat. Works great. You do have to put holes in your main, which is a disadvantage.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2006 : 19:45:51

I also have the Dutchman and have no problems with it. It really makes it easy when your a single in dropping the main. As Bert says, you do have to put holes in your main.

Edited by - on

JJM
Navigator

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USA
170 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2006 : 20:08:39

Jerry,

Did you get your sail cover modified (I am sure you did). Who did you have do it, or did you do it yourself?

Can you give me an idea of the cost for the Dutchman and the cover modification?

Anything else to be aware of?

Geez - all I have are questions!!!

(thanks for replying guys!!!)

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2006 : 21:29:10

There is a C-250 next to me at the marina and the owner says his Dutchman gets twisted and wishes it was not there. Not sure why. But my only experience with it was on C-250 that belonged to a submariner. I thought it was great.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2006 : 22:21:57

I must have blew it again, the main we are talking about requiring the holes is the mainsail. The mainsail cover does not require holes since the Dutchman system is on a loop that replaces the topping lift. You pull the Dutchman lines up when you get ready to raise the main and you pull them down after the sail is flaked on the boom. This allows the mainsail cover to go over the mainsail and the Ducthman lines to come out the bottom of the cover.

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 02:19:01

This system seems the way to go for simplicity, ease of operation, and cost:

www.jiffyjax.com

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 10:20:51

Looks the same as EZ Jax, are there differences between the two?

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JJM
Navigator

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USA
170 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 11:56:12

I understand that all the Jacks (JAX) systems are a different technology than the Dutchman type system. I just heard and read that for these systems you have to be dead on into the wind otherwise you risk tangling the main battens in the lines. Even the Jiffyjax website states: minimize the possibility of "hooking" the top batten on the halyard line during sail lowering.

It doesn't explicitly say in order to mitigate this possiblity you should head into the wind, but a friend of mine has one of the Jacks systems, and every time he raises/lowers his main, he is very careful to make sure his boat heads dead into the wind. I am sure that experience has taught him that!!!

I am not necessarily looking for the cheapest route to go on this, I would like to get the one that is easiest and safest to use. Jiffyjax says you have to raise/lower the system from the mast that it is not deployable from the cockpit...

Jerry,

The reason I even mentioned the sail cover modification is that when I looked online every site mentions sail cover modification as a part of the installation:

*Boat Installation Includes

New vinyl coated topping lift wire
New topping lift control line (XLS polyester line)
Installation of new topping lift and cleat
Tune up and adjustment of system as needed
Explanation and demonstration of use
**Sail Installation Includes

New vinyl coated topping lift wire
Installation of control lines
Set-up lines and system in loft for easy installation
Modification of sail cover for an additional $50 

Interesting that you say you can raise and lower the lines and have them come out of the bottom of the sail cover.
Thanks for that information!

Edited by - JJM on 02/01/2006 12:06:23

tbader
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 13:09:07

I've had both. I think the Dutchman is "nicer" in terms of the ease of sailhandling and the battens not getting caught. However when it fails (as mine did last summer when one of the nylon lines snapped), you have holes in your main and some extra hardware hanging off your topping lift with no benefit. I am currently debating whether to fix my Dutchman or just bag it and put in lazy jacks (which I had on my old boat and which worked great).
As far as the need to head into the wind (w/ lazy jacks), I always try to head into the wind when raising the main, or at least I have the mainsheet free so the boom is heading into the wind.

It sounds from the responses like you can't go wrong with either system.
In my experience neither system requires modification of the sail cover.

Edited by - on

welshoff
Captain

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USA
253 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 13:16:08

All,
I had the Dutchman system when I had my C27 (before the C250). I absolutley loved it. As Frog noted, the topping lift is replace by a looped line which allows you to adjust the tenstion on the Dutchman lines as well as provides the ability to lower the Dutchman lines to install the mainsail cover. I could drop and raise my main with this system on most points of sail with no problem, even down wind (had to pull sail down at mast). Take off the main sail cover, take off the sail ties,adust the loop line to apply the proper tension to the Dutchman lines, attach the main haylard, and raise the main sail whenever I wanted to with no worries where the sail would end up. No going on the coach roof to gather the sail. The sail would stay flaked on boom even with no sail ties. When the wind piped up, you just drop the main (it flaked every time on the boom), set the reef, and pull the main back up. The looped line on my C27 stopped short of the boom and still allowed me to adust the height of the boom when using the boom vang (did not interfer with the topping lift function).

The only thing is you have to have the sail modified for the lines that run up the main sail. My system had two lines that ran parallel to the mast. It also takes a few tries to set the proper tension on the Dutcman lines to make the system work. Once you get this part figured out, it is very easy to adjust from the cockpit and have complete control when dropping the main sail.

I would love to have this system on my C250 and at some point I will make the investment to do so.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 16:20:42

Tom...one of my lines snapped last year, too. There was enough spare line in curled up in the holder located next to the boom that I just pulled out some more line, measured it, and put it up.

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 23:09:50

The information you posted on the Ducthman parts and install have to do with what Dutchman calls the "A" system an is designed for large boats. The system for the C250 is the "B" system which has the loop line and does not require modificaton to the mainsail cover. Check out the "B" system on this link.

http://www.mvbinfo.com/dp_03_SF_install_info.html#anchorB

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 02:00:16

Per my previous post re Jiffy Jax (www.jiffyjax.com), has anyone installed this new system and, if so, what's the verdict? Thanks.

Edited by - on

JJM
Navigator

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USA
170 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 12:41:18

Jerry,

Thanks - it is the B system - I see that now.

Edited by - on

welshoff
Captain

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USA
253 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 16:01:43

All,
I called a sailmaker in Seattle and he quoted a "C" system for a C250. The Dutchman kit and the modifications to the sail came in at roughly 6 boat units. I would have to install the loop system on the boat on the boat.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 16:33:09

There is an oufit, Sailor's Choice Inc. in New York that will install the "B" system in your sail for $485. Installing it onthe boat is easy. I did have to add a 12" pigtail to the masthead to lower the cam cleat on the loop line so I could reach it easily when standing on the cockpit seat. When I have to replace the loop I will make it longer and do away withthe pigtail.

Edited by - on

Capt. Kurt
Navigator

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185 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 17:04:40

How much to Jiffy Jacks cost? Looks like it would pretty easy to make your own with some 1/4 line and simple eye bolts. Or am I missing something?

Kurt
#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 20:39:03

Jiffy Jax for a 250: $280.00 and includes shipping. The prices are on their website.

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2006 : 20:00:00

...but I have decided to live without jacks for awhile. Still would have a sail flaking situation once the jacks are pulled back and secured. Enough lines awready

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johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2006 : 21:41:37

You may want to look at..... sailcare.com...Lazy jack system.
Had them on my Cat 22 and now on my C250.
Simple to use no hang ups or jams.

paulj C250 wk #719

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2006 : 12:04:23

Anything that requires you to go to the mast on a 25 foot boat makes no sense. All of these systems evolved to meet the needs of larger boats. The 250 and 25 main sails are small and light. With full battens there is no issue with holding them on the boom while you put sailties on them, (I have elastic velcro straps that are left on my boom at the ready), with larger sails that can be difficult to impossible. An easy thing to do is to simply open up your main hatch and let the sail fall off the boom and down into the companionway, in all but the most terrible of conditions it will hang down there until you get in. The advantage of a stacking system on boats our size is best realized when it is part of a highly modified sailcover, i.e. Doyle Stack Pack. There you not only gain the Dutchman function but an integral sailcover that simply zips up around your stacked sail. I sail with one fairly often on an ODay 272 and it genuinely gets you on the water more often; zip, hoist... drop, zip.

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